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Has United States Politics Always Been Like This?


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#1
Hellswarm

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Forgive me.

I'm a 16 year-old Canadian-born Chinese who thinks he's got a good head on his shoulders. I know, I'm young and I haven't seen all that much.

But has American Politics always been as extreme as what we are currently seeing? Really, it's appalling for a country that considers itself to be a world leader. Inciting hate against Islam, Birth Certificates, comparisons to Nazism and Marxism ... what's next? I generally tend to be able to disagree with people on government policy without comparing them to Hitler.

I don't want to debate about whether or not Obama's policy is similar to Hitler's - I really do think that anyone with their mind out of the gutter realizes it's not, and that won't be subject to change in this thread.

I just want to hear everyone's opinion on how American Politics has changed within the past 50 years concerning everything BUT government policy. Someone with more life experience than me, at least. Is all of this conspiring ... new?

By the way, I think the Swastika with an Eagle on top of it looks more like the United States Marine Corps insignia than it does the Obama Heath Care logo. Not that I think that it matters.

Edited by Hellswarm, 08 August 2009 - 12:36 AM.


#2
Riddle

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Nazism, Communism, Marxism, Free Trade Enterprise, etc etc

They are all the same. A way to keep the power within those who already have it, and to keep the majority of everyone else their humble servants.



#3
Fin

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QUOTE
I just want to hear everyone's opinion on how American Politics has changed within the past 50 years concerning everything BUT government policy. Someone with more life experience than me, at least. Is all of this conspiring ... new?

Belive it or not but the shit has actually improved. Politics have always been the same, we just didnt know about all the shit that went on when there was no internet / 24 hour "news" channels / Political pundits talking rubbish on tv / "Left " and "Right" wing news stations.

#4
Jaylew

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Well, at the very start American politics were, as one would be able to guess, different. Not really better, but certainly different.

Over the years it's changed while still being convoluted and, at times, far too hide-bound. In many ways the United States has become a perversion of the oringal idea, resembling exactly what we were supposed to be escaping from ever so long ago. We're still better off then a lot of the world, yeah, but when it comes to a first-world perspective things have come a long way.

QUOTE (Riddle @ Aug 8 2009, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nazism, Communism, Marxism, Free Trade Enterprise, etc etc

They are all the same. A way to keep the power within those who already have it, and to keep the majority of everyone else their humble servants.

Because the current federal banking system doesn't do a moderately good job of living up to that concept?

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#5
Hellswarm

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Thanks Fin and Jaylew

QUOTE (Riddle @ Aug 8 2009, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nazism, Communism, Marxism, Free Trade Enterprise, etc etc

They are all the same. A way to keep the power within those who already have it, and to keep the majority of everyone else their humble servants.


I'm not talking about Classical Politics here. I'm talking about American Politics - where News Channels and Radio can be more influential than the Politicians themselves, where Abortion and Gay Rights are a part of the Left-Right spectrum, where a certain religion can be made public enemy #1, and where the current shit we see happening is all made possible.

Edited by Hellswarm, 08 August 2009 - 02:25 PM.


#6
DarkKitchen

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Attacks like those come from a small group of extremists that have a lot of money and power in the media

#7
Fin

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QUOTE
They are all the same. A way to keep the power within those who already have it, and to keep the majority of everyone else their humble servants.

OK I am sorry but you can not possible compare Communism & Nazism. the whole idea is crazy. I know that if you are poor it's always cool to "hate the rich and powerful". I am sorry that James The Guy Next Door has more money then you. Must piss you off real bad. But for fuck sake you can't hate someone just because they have more money then you do :/ It just aint healthy :/
QUOTE
Attacks like those come from a small group of extremists that have a lot of money and power in the media

Pss... Saudi-Arabia... Rupert Murdoch.

Note to self: Next time dont post when drunk, spelling errors will happend :/

Edited by Fin, 09 August 2009 - 03:17 AM.


#8
TubularLuggage

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In the States, it's actually a very small portion of the population that are that extreme one way or the other. Unfortunately, they're a very vocal minority, and the media loves sensationalism, so we see it all the time.
Channels like Fox News on the right, and to a lesser extent MSNBC on the left, politicize everything and push it to the extreme, because they know they can develop a very loyal viewer base that way. Extreme people like hearing their opinions spouted by some person on TV.

It's very damaging not only to the political discourse, but to the society in general. Even news with no connection to politics is politicized, and a bunch of hacks on TV go out of their way to blame the other side, even if it makes absolutely no sense. Just compare Canadian or British news to American news. It's a pretty shocking contrast.

It wasn't always that way. There were always extremists, but it wasn't until the last few decades that they were really given a voice. It is indeed sad, and a bit terrifying, to see the media and some of the citizens and leadership in such a powerful nation act like such stupid fucks. It's definitely sad as well to know that the majority of Americans hate the way it is, and just want a civil discourse, but won't get it any time soon.
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#9
Hellswarm

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TubularLuggage, did I ever tell you how amazing yyou are?

#10
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QUOTE (Riddle @ Aug 8 2009, 05:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nazism, Communism, Marxism, Free Trade Enterprise, etc etc

They are all the same. A way to keep the power within those who already have it, and to keep the majority of everyone else their humble servants.

free trade?

wat?
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#11
Riddle

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QUOTE (Fin @ Aug 9 2009, 05:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK I am sorry but you can not possible compare Communism & Nazism. the whole idea is crazy. I know that if you are poor it's always cool to "hate the rich and powerful". I am sorry that James The Guy Next Door has more money then you. Must piss you off real bad. But for fuck sake you can't hate someone just because they have more money then you do :/ It just aint healthy :/

I was making a statement, not how i feel.

In general, the wealthy will remain wealthy no matter how bad things get and the poor will remain poor no matter how good things get.

Politics is a way of maintaining this circle of life.



QUOTE (Hellswarm @ Aug 9 2009, 03:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Fin and Jaylew



I'm not talking about Classical Politics here. I'm talking about American Politics - where News Channels and Radio can be more influential than the Politicians themselves, where Abortion and Gay Rights are a part of the Left-Right spectrum, where a certain religion can be made public enemy #1, and where the current shit we see happening is all made possible.


True. You got to look at the news channels and radios as businesses. The bottom line is, selling something sensational and entertaining is more profitable than actually selling something meaningful but dull.
Afterall, the News channels have to answer to shareholders if there is a drop in sales.

For instance, the TV have people like Jim Kramer telling you how to invest in stocks. People watch his show because its entertaining. And anyone who actually listens to his investment strategies, or anyone on TV for that matter, must be pretty naive.

In the US, what news gains coverage doesnt lie in the hands of the News or Radio channels. Media Lobbyists control this aspect. Have a good long read

Edited by Riddle, 09 August 2009 - 01:46 PM.


#12
pearlsea

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QUOTE (TubularLuggage @ Aug 8 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's definitely sad as well to know that the majority of Americans hate the way it is, and just want a civil discourse, but won't get it any time soon.

I'm going to disagree, people are sheep. If they were against how the current political system works they would at the very least;

a)vote (it should be illegal not to vote, if you don't support a candidate you either run for office yourself or mark off the "I choose not to vote for a candidate" box)
b)not vote like sheep
c)vote better candidates that have a chance when people are not too busy being sheep

Your 2 party system in America is a joke. Canada is not much better but at least we have a labour party that can get a decent amount of the popular vote.

Media really needs to be restricted in politics, does anyone even question how much of an impact they have? Polls influence people to "not waste my vote", thats the biggest way of becoming a sheep imaginable I hate people like that. Scandals get blown out of proportion because it gets ratings. Things that have absolutely nothing to do with politics about candidates gets covered and that influences peoples opinions.


#13
way2lazy2care

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QUOTE (Riddle @ Aug 9 2009, 01:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was making a statement, not how i feel.

In general, the wealthy will remain wealthy no matter how bad things get and the poor will remain poor no matter how good things get.

Politics is a way of maintaining this circle of life.

that's not true at all.

http://www.forbes.co...ags2riches.html

As cliche as it sounds, with hard work and determination you don't have to be stuck where you are in life.
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QUOTE (Virus52 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ALL HAIL THE GREAT AND MIGHTY MOTH!

QUOTE (SN3S @ May 6 2008, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#14
destroyer56

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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Aug 9 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
that's not true at all.

http://www.forbes.co...ags2riches.html

As cliche as it sounds, with hard work and determination you don't have to be stuck where you are in life.

Pretty much truth. It really doesn't take too much to be able to get a full ride through college if you just put a little effort into high school, especially if you are a minority (since schools give scholarships to minorities much more than whites.) I mean honestly, there really isn't anyone you can blame today for your own problems.
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#15
Jaylew

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QUOTE (pearlsea @ Aug 9 2009, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm going to disagree, people are sheep. If they were against how the current political system works they would at the very least;

a)vote (it should be illegal not to vote, if you don't support a candidate you either run for office yourself or mark off the "I choose not to vote for a candidate" box)
b)not vote like sheep
c)vote better candidates that have a chance when people are not too busy being sheep

Your 2 party system in America is a joke.

Funny thing about that, in a politics class I took in high school, the teacher actually told us, when asked about parties other then Republican or Democrat, and I quote:
"There's no point looking into them, because voting for anything but the two major parties is a waste of your time and everyone else's". When I tried to say otherwise, I spent the rest of the day doing homework in in-school suspension.

I never forgot that, so I've paid attention to every politician equally every year while doing my own research, then when came time to vote this last election I did so.

Then, whenever anyone asked me and I told them who I voted for (I wont say here so as not to start an already defunct political discussion), out of every single person I was responded to with "Who?" or "Why didn't you just vote for change?!"

Right around then, I stopped leaving the house for everything but class and to hang out with friends, avoiding contact with anyone I don't know as much as possible. The average American is, in fact, a sheep.

Hell, most of them should be deemed clinically retarded.

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#16
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Edited by Riddle, 10 August 2009 - 12:30 AM.


#17
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QUOTE (Hellswarm @ Aug 7 2009, 11:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just want to hear everyone's opinion on how American Politics has changed within the past 50 years concerning everything BUT government policy. Someone with more life experience than me, at least. Is all of this conspiring ... new?

50 years ago the "communist threat" was used much in the same way the "terrorist threat" is used to limit personal freedoms and attack political opponents. For example, if you're against spending $398539579347598734 on attack helicopters you're giving the terrorists a chance to destroy America. Same thing happened with the "communist threat" 50 years ago.
i think it got labelled "Mcarthyism"
http://en.wikipedia....iki/McCarthyism
QUOTE (James Madison @ Aug 25 1781, 11:48 AM)
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#18
TubularLuggage

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QUOTE (pearlsea @ Aug 9 2009, 03:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm going to disagree, people are sheep. If they were against how the current political system works they would at the very least;

The mass political apathy in the United States is largely a result of the excessive promotion of extremism. The average person simply isn't that extreme, and when they're made to think that most people are, they're turned off of the whole system.

QUOTE
a)vote (it should be illegal not to vote, if you don't support a candidate you either run for office yourself or mark off the "I choose not to vote for a candidate" box)
b)not vote like sheep
c)vote better candidates that have a chance when people are not too busy being sheep

Though I absolutely think all eligible people should vote, and that there's no excuse not to, legally requiring people to vote is a terrible idea. Education and encouraging people to get informed and politically active is the best we can do.
Having a "None of the above" option would be great, but there isn't any such option on most US ballots at this time.

QUOTE
Your 2 party system in America is a joke. Canada is not much better but at least we have a labour party that can get a decent amount of the popular vote.

I don't know if you're speaking to me or just generally here.
I'm Canadian. The Canadian political system is much better than the American system in both attitude and process. It's a bit uneven right now with three major left wing parties vs one major right wing party, but with the way our system works, if this persists, another right wing party will sprout up to balance it out.
Canada doesn't have a Labor party. I'm not sure which of our parties you're referring to with that.

The best system for a presidential republic like the states would be a nationwide popular vote with a required 50%, and multiple round voting with the top few candidates advancing each round until one receives more than 50%. It would allow for more than two parties by doing away with strategic voting. Voting 'against' a party would no longer mean having to vote for the 2nd most popular party.

QUOTE
50 years ago the "communist threat" was used much in the same way the "terrorist threat" is used to limit personal freedoms and attack political opponents.

It's pretty surprising how few people see the parallels.

Edited by TubularLuggage, 10 August 2009 - 12:39 AM.

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#19
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QUOTE (TubularLuggage @ Aug 8 2009, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In the States, it's actually a very small portion of the population that are that extreme one way or the other.

I don't know about you, but I know a TON of extreme right-wings.
It's all about what your parents and peers tell you tbh.

#20
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QUOTE (TubularLuggage @ Aug 10 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's pretty surprising how few people see the parallels.

After the fall of the USSR it was discovered the country's military was not nearly as strong as advertised on US television by the big three news networks.
QUOTE (James Madison @ Aug 25 1781, 11:48 AM)
If Tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy




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