Jump to content

Welcome to The OFFICIAL Pure Pwnage forums
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Does Pure Pwange Owe Us Anything?

- - - - -

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
35 replies to this topic

#1
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
So this guy Naoko keeps pming me lol because because he feels that pure pwnage owes him something. He even went as far as to call them "arrogant tossers". 20 pms later, and I am starting to think that this topic is worthy of discussion by the community. I personally feel that the pure pwnage does not owe us anything, but through their passion for the show and the respect for the fans, they will continue to provide us with awesome content. Hopefully this thread can stop Naoko from harassing me. Also he has made it perfectly clear that I am ignorant icon_smile.gif



#2
Tree_

Tree_

    <3's You Guys

  • Retired Staff
  • 15,518 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
I feel they owe me lunch because on the day of the Aussie prem I didn't get any and so I went hungry until the after party... That's about it really.

This is probably my own fault however, but if I didn't go to the prem I would have eaten lunch that day; and I blame PurePwnage for this.

#3
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
They owe me five dollas!

#4
Ph0biA

Ph0biA
  • GA Lieutenant
  • 1,490 posts
  • xfire:iamphobia
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, Ohio
  • Steam ID:Ph0biA
  • Xbox / GFWL:PPGA Ph0biA
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
  • Gamer Army ID:178
  • Company:Golf
I tend to agree with Naoko on fundamentals.

However, they don't owe us anything, although if they want our support, then they have to earn it. They still have my support; but not as many people have the loyalty that I do. That's just my opinion.

#5
Tree_

Tree_

    <3's You Guys

  • Retired Staff
  • 15,518 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
It should also be noted that this thread reminded me I owe some one because of PurePwnage as MelonQueen paid for my tickets to said prem and I never paid her back; if you read this MQ, I am so sorry... icon_razz.gif

#6
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
See, I think it would be great for pure pwnage to have more updates, but I do not feel that they "owe" us anything. I'd say that the exchange of currency, services and goods are pretty even considering that they produce the show with their love, we watch it, they provide us with gear, we pay them. Also did I mention that I am ignorant??????????? icon_smile.gif

#7
PureRandom

PureRandom
  • GA Private
  • 1,109 posts
  • Gamer Army ID:4039
If they want to keep fans , they should keep them entertained with updates. If they dont update, they loose fans.. simple as that... so no they dont owe us anything but if they want supporters then they better support us by making us entertained


#8
PwnDaddy123

PwnDaddy123

    Best film & movies contributor '09

  • Members
  • 6,040 posts
  • xfire:teh0ass0kicker
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:montrheal kébek cehnadaa
  • Interests:mothers
  • Steam ID:joeyestcool
  • Xbox / GFWL:more like gaylo
  • PSN:ballin
  • Wii:lol fkin dildo
  • Rofl-Rupees:5
They owe us good episodes. Which they always end up giving us. Nothing to complain about, move along.

QUOTE (GtuFest @ Sep 19 2012, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
SITMOS is great, one of my favorite podcasts.


#9
Naoko

Naoko
  • Members
  • 353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
Guys, I must apologise for embroisured's actions for bringing this back onto the forum. Also I lol'd at "Pure Pwange".

He has went so far as to twist my words in order to make me seem like some asshole who doesn't appreciate everything the PP crew do for us. As I'm sure I've mentioned before, I once travelled over 400 miles to see them - so it's nothing I take for granted.

That being said, this issue was brought up in another thread and continued in PM's - to which embroisured happily responded with a more aggressive attitude each time.

Having forseen the possibility of this happening, I taken the liberty of saving the last message I sent him, along with every other message - so I could defend myself from having anything I said twisted.

At a point in the Twitter thread, embroisured attempted to get me to explain why I feel PP owe their fans something - to which I just told him "I've sent you a PM in regards to that", or something like that.

Just so you guys get an idea of how much I called the Pure Pwnage crew "arrogant tossers", I'll include the messages below. Please note that I didn't call anyone an arrogant tosser (highlighted in red), and simply pointed out that embroisured would be one in a hypothetical situation that hasn't happened. A perfect display of his bad attitude and ignorance.

I like how he tries to be the good guy by bringing it to the community and such, when I'm fairly sure this has been discussed a thousand times before. I also like how he's brought this to the community to try and prove his point, when the whole thing is a matter of opinion regardless. Providing this thread doesn't get locked, I'd be happy to discuss my opinions with you all, as I'm sure some people share similar ideas. That being said, I'm only responding right now to defend myself from such obvious lies.

Oh and by the way lol, embroisured decided to tell me he only read the first paragraph of my last reply, because I'm so full of shit apparently. The arrogant tosser bit isn't in the first paragraph. I knew he read it all icon_smile.gif.

Here's the original message, the only change being a few red highlighted bits and some spelling corrections on my part: (assume the first reply is me, second is embroisured, third is me again, fourth embroisured and so forth alternating as such. Last response is me. Oh, and I added his last response on the end of the post after "EDIT:".)


QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
QUOTE
Seems the thread has been locked... I'd like to point out, that the money the cast use to produce the show, comes from revenue created by the store, which in turn fans buy from because they like the show, to support the lifestyle of the cast, which they then make more of the show from.

The cast owe us (at least some regular correspondence), because without our continued support, there would be no show, no cycle. They don't make the show from their money that they've earned from another job. They literally live and make the show from cash earned through the show itself. Without us, there'd be no flow of cash keeping them afloat - and they owe us for that. For choosing to support their show through *their* branded products.. They owe it more to themselves to keep us interested in between episodes with at least some reassurance that our continued support isn't going unnoticed, so that they can continue living they way they are, and producing a show they love producing.

End of.

Well yeah, it's their job. It's also a business and like any other business they make money from it. However this business that I am talking about is the n00bstore, and is quite arguably separate from the actual show and updates. I understand that people want more updates, but if the crew feels that a universal PP twitter is unnecessary, than I guess it is. If they had anything important to say they would either post it on the front page, or in their existing personal twitter, or contact phobia and have it posted on the pwnagenews.


No, the noobstore is part of the Pure Pwnage entity as a whole. If it wasn't for the show, no one would be interested in the noobstore. If they were, it would be in merchandise that could be sold without the show existing, but most of that could easily be obtained elsewhere, like a T-shirt printing website. Keep in mind the store generates most of its hits through the show, as well. Other merch like the stickers, mouse mats, etc are purely bought out of interest for the show itself. Why would I buy a mousemat branded with the show logo if I wasn't interested in the show? I wouldn't, I wouldn't have even considered it.

They haven't stated they feel a PP Twitter as unnecessary, the thought might not have even crossed their mind. If the PP Twitter thread generates enough drive and the community shows interest, they might consider it if they otherwise wouldn't have, for whatever reason. I'm fairly sure they're open to suggestion - you can't expect them to think of ways to meet our needs as a whole all by themselves. Every entity with a fan following listens to its fans for suggestion. You can't assume they've already decided against it just because it doesn't exist yet.

The Twitter wouldn't be for "important" stuff. The whole point would be for informal, but show related posts - just to relieve some of the recent frustration caused by lack of communication from the crew. Like I've ALREADY explained in the thread, the personal Twitters that the crew currently have are unsuitable for reasons ALREADY stated in the same post. Go read it.

Also, PP News isn't affiliated with the crew, it's a fan made thing. Besides, content that could be posted to a PP Twitter wouldn't be worth contacting Phobia over, neither would they be worth a front page spot. Like I've ALREADY said, a PP Twitter would consist of small things like "ha, we broke a light on set today" or "Don't you hate it when it rains and you need to film outside?". The purpose of the Twitter would not be to provide essential information about the show, but would rather be an essential entity in itself to ease the gap between correspondence as it is at the moment. A way of showing the community that their constant contribution isn't going unnoticed and that the crew ARE doing something in the time between major news posts and episodes. Not that I'm implying otherwise, but the reassurance is always nice - especially for the rising number of fans feeling like they've been left in the dark recently.

Please, go reread the Twitter thread and take it all in, so that I don't have to keep repeating myself.


Actually the n00bstore doesn't mainly sell items that are huge inside jokes to the show.. I actually find that they have a lot of items that most general games can purchase without even knowing what the show is. Also with 1 (not counting the fake Jeremy one) twitters, and all the personal twitters, you would think that if they wanted an easier way to post official PP news, they would have already, or at least would have thought of it. Maybe they are busy?


They're not so busy that they can't maintain a Twitter for the show. They might not have done it because they might not think it's necessary. The point of my thread was to say to everyone "Look, this would be great for the frustrated people", and maybe one of the cast would notice and think, yep, the community does seem to think that would work.


"I actually find that they have a lot of items that most general games can purchase without even knowing what the show is"

Very true, which I pointed out earlier. But like I also said earlier, those items could easily be purchased elsewhere, probably cheaper. Why should I buy their brand when I could go to a T-shirt printing website and get it done cheaper, and get it exactly how I want?

And like I've ALREADY said, I'm betting on the fact that the majority of the traffic the noobstore generates comes from the show itself. I think that without the show, the noobstore wouldn't make enough money to fully support, like, 4 people as it does at the moment.


You have no fucking idea, I can't even begin to point out how wrong you are, so I'll just let you knowt his. The n00bstore does NOT support 4 people.. it barely even supports 2. Joel and Dave have jobs, and I am pretty sure Geoff and Jarett have other jobs as well. Stop trying to sound like you know what you are talking about because it is annoying.


Your ignorant attitude is annoying.


http://www.purepwnag....php?GUID=76007


Interviewer: So Pure Pwnage is your full time job?

Jarett: Yep, mine and five others.

Interviewer: So how do you make money?

Jarett: Uh, we sell T-shirts.

Interviewer: So the show is commercial for T-shirts?

Jarett: Yeah! (laughs). The show is a piece of art, and the T-shirts are a product associated with that art that people voluntarily choose to purchase.


Let me point out the key parts of that interview which make your previous message completely flawed:

Interviewer: So Pure Pwnage is your full time job?

Jarett: Yep, mine and five others.

Note "FULL TIME", and "FIVE OTHERS".

Bloody hell, I can't even begin to point out how wrong YOU are. According to Jarett himself, "The n00bstore does NOT support 4 people" is complete rubbish! Where did you hear that, did you make it up?

To quote you:

"Stop trying to sound like you know what you are talking about because it is annoying."


JUST BECAUSE IT IS A FULL TIME JOB DOES NOT MEAN IT IS THE ONLY JOB. GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT YOU STUPID ASSHOLE. Also I would like you to name these people, because as far as I know Joel, Dave, and Myranda have other jobs. Also it was dicussed on a topic that they make a lot less than what everyone thinks. Also you suck at math, and according to that interview it would be 6 people, and there is NO fucking way that they are able to fully support 6 people.


I suck at math? Haha, when I said 4 people, it was a guess from what I could recall.

I'm well aware that one could have a full time job, as well as another, probably part time job. But it's safe to assume full time job = only job in the majority of cases. You have to remember, these guys quit school to produce the show / do stand up / whatever. I very much doubt any of the major cast members have another full time job.

Even if they had two "full time" jobs, they still owe us for choosing to support the cast and show, contributing to their lifestyle and their overall ability to produce the show. Like I said, without the fans, there'd be no show. It's common knowledge that in order to keep your fans / earn more fans, you show appreciaton for their support. Why? Because they need the fans to support them and the show of course, and that includes cash flow. We don't need the show, they need us. Therefore they owe us for continually supporting them - especially at a time when they're hardly being active within the community (recent events aside) and we STILL continue our support.

If I had a show with millions of supporters, I'd be extremely thankful for them, because I'd know, without them, my show would be worthless. I'd feel I'd owe them for their constant stream of support, and possible revenue, especially if they just kept on going strong at a time when I wasn't that active / releasing content as often. You always hear about how people really appreciate their fans, this is the reason why. If you think that if you had a show with millions of fans - and you had it in your head that you didn't owe them jack shit, you'd be one arrogant little tosser.

Not that I'm not thankful for Pure Pwnage, but they owe the fans. They don't do this shit for free, they do it as a way of generating revenue, along with wanting to do it, of course. They need to generate this revenue to continue living as they are. Without it, they'd probably be worse off. Anyone that says anything along the lines of "oh my god you get the show for free stop complaining" is full of shite. The cast produce the show and live (at least somewhat) from revenue generated from store hits originating from the show. Anyone that has ever contributed to the cast in some way or another (forums, cash, showing up at a premiere, whatever), the cast owe. Without those people, there would be nothing.

If you don't understand this now, then there's no way you're ever going to even begin to understand.

You're becoming more and more aggressive, and to be frank, you're not worth my time anymore.


EDIT: OH AND BY THE WAY....

I forgot HIS latest reply. To which I'm not going to respond, obviously. I have nothing more to say to this guy.

QUOTE
I will only read the first paragraph, because everything that you say is full of shit. STOP ASSUMING YOU FAGGOT. Maybe if you keep qqing to me, I'll magically transform into Pure Pwnage man, and make a twittter, that will magically tell you everything. Seriously, you can type a whole lot of words, but say absolutely nothing, how do you do it?


EDIT 2:

tldr;

QUOTE (Shaun. @ May 19 2009, 02:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We owe them our support and they owe us reasons to continue supporting them.


EDIT 3:

I'd just like to note that I never once imply or assume that Pure Pwnage don't appreciate their fans or their support. I'm just trying to explain my point of view - don't misunderstand. In short, it's my opinion that I completely disagree with the statement "Pure Pwnage owe us nothing.". That is all. The point of this was to argue that statement, not demand more content, QQ, accuse or whatever else. (Although I think a PP Twitter would be nice icon_wink.gif).

Edited by Naoko, 18 May 2009 - 11:05 PM.


#10
Ph0biA

Ph0biA
  • GA Lieutenant
  • 1,490 posts
  • xfire:iamphobia
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, Ohio
  • Steam ID:Ph0biA
  • Xbox / GFWL:PPGA Ph0biA
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
  • Gamer Army ID:178
  • Company:Golf
This whole thread is becoming a flame fest. Reporting it for closure.

#11
Naoko

Naoko
  • Members
  • 353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
QUOTE (Ph0biA @ May 19 2009, 03:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This whole thread is becoming a flame fest. Reporting it for closure.


Thanks - this wasn't intended to hit the forums anyway, which is why it was in PMs in the first place. He's brought a personal disagreement into public display to try and prove his point.

I wouldn't have even considered posting anything of the sort, but I didn't want anyone to think I'm the kind of person embroisured implys me to be. I want nothing further to do with the guy.

I'm just happy I had the chance to defend what I said before it was locked - because that's going to be inevitable.

lol, this feels about as mature as telling tales when you're a kid.

Edited by Naoko, 18 May 2009 - 10:33 PM.


#12
teh_Elderer

teh_Elderer
  • Members
  • 634 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OHIO


In short, They don't owe us anything. However, they owe it to themselves to keep their fans happy.

happy fans spend money.

It's this concept that frustrates me the most. I want them to be successful.


I think this is Naoko's point, but I don't have the time to read all of that to know for sure.
Unattended children will be given an espresso and a free puppy

#13
Naoko

Naoko
  • Members
  • 353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
QUOTE (teh_Elderer @ May 19 2009, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In short, They don't owe us anything. However, they owe it to themselves to keep their fans happy.

happy fans spend money.

It's this concept that frustrates me the most. I want them to be successful.


I think this is Naoko's point, but I don't have the time to read all of that to know for sure.


This is what I believe more strongly.

But I still think they owe it to their fans because of our choice to support them. Saying that the PP crew owe us nothing is silly, if it wasn't for the fans of the show, there'd be no show.

I think Shaun put my opinion more simply than I ever could have:

"We owe them our support and they owe us reasons to continue supporting them."

#14
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
notice how it turned into a flame fest as soon as naoko joins? interesting... and i wasn't even here. Naoko, you are a huge hypocrite

also you have 34 posts, and I bet that every single one of those posts were whining, or arguing.

#15
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
QUOTE (Shaun. @ May 19 2009, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, the flame started with your first post.

Although you made a valid discussion topic, it was unnecessary to mention your tiff with Naoko. The only reason Naoko took it further was to justify himself/herself from whatever accusations you made in your post.

you mean before or after he started trolling me?

#16
Ph0biA

Ph0biA
  • GA Lieutenant
  • 1,490 posts
  • xfire:iamphobia
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, Ohio
  • Steam ID:Ph0biA
  • Xbox / GFWL:PPGA Ph0biA
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
  • Gamer Army ID:178
  • Company:Golf
QUOTE (embroisured @ May 19 2009, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
notice how it turned into a flame fest as soon as naoko joins? interesting... and i wasn't even here. Naoko, you are a huge hypocrite

also you have 34 posts, and I bet that every single one of those posts were whining, or arguing.

Actually, you made it a flame thread by mentioning his name, you then made the post entirely about what you thought his views were. Granted, I feel neither of you were right, but if you want to point fingers, be sure to not be pointing into useless fog.

#17
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
QUOTE (Ph0biA @ May 19 2009, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually, you made it a flame thread by mentioning his name, you then made the post entirely about what you thought his views were. Granted, I feel neither of you were right, but if you want to point fingers, be sure to not be pointing into useless fog.

right about what? I have no views on any of this. I have no opinion. I am neither wrong, or right. But check this out. He thinks pure pwnage owes him.. let me define "owe"

to be under obligation to pay or repay
to be indebted (to) as the cause or source of: to owe one's fame to good fortune.
To be indebted to the amount of: He owes me five dollars.

I believe that saying that they are under strict obligation to provide us with a twitter is kinda dickish.

Also it's hilarious that he had to point out my typo, when he clearly spells things wrong because he just doesn't know how to spell the word properly.

Also, I normally would have just forgotten about it, but it is extremely annoying when every time you check your email you see a pm from some kid who loves to mindlessly argue

#18
Ph0biA

Ph0biA
  • GA Lieutenant
  • 1,490 posts
  • xfire:iamphobia
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dayton, Ohio
  • Steam ID:Ph0biA
  • Xbox / GFWL:PPGA Ph0biA
  • Rofl-Rupees:1
  • Gamer Army ID:178
  • Company:Golf
QUOTE (embroisured @ May 19 2009, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
right about what? I have no views on any of this. I have no opinion. I am neither wrong, or right. But check this out. He thinks pure pwnage owes him.. let me define "owe"

to be under obligation to pay or repay
to be indebted (to) as the cause or source of: to owe one's fame to good fortune.
To be indebted to the amount of: He owes me five dollars.

I believe that saying that they are under strict obligation to provide us with a twitter is kinda dickish.

Also it's hilarious that he had to point out my typo, when he clearly spells things wrong because he just doesn't know how to spell the word properly.


If you have no opinion, why make a thread to show you disagree? I think Naoko could make a thread of his own if he wanted. You clearly disagree with his opinion, so you made a thread against it. You could have equally made a post asking what you felt, left his name out, and linked him to the post; or asked him to make a post on behalf of himself if he felt that way. We are all users here, you are not a journalist reporting what other people think. icon_wink.gif I'm not declaring either of you right; but settle it. If not, find a better way to dispute it than making topics regarding "But he said". This "He said" "She said" bullshit is exactly that, bullshit.

#19
embroisured

embroisured
  • GA Private
  • 1,723 posts
  • Location:li ny
  • Xbox / GFWL:Drunkard Zero
  • Gamer Army ID:3725
QUOTE (Ph0biA @ May 19 2009, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you have no opinion, why make a thread to show you disagree? I think Naoko could make a thread of his own if he wanted. You clearly disagree with his opinion, so you made a thread against it. You could have equally made a post asking what you felt, left his name out, and linked him to the post; or asked him to make a post on behalf of himself if he felt that way. We are all users here, you are not a journalist reporting what other people think. icon_wink.gif I'm not declaring either of you right; but settle it. If not, find a better way to dispute it than making topics regarding "But he said". This "He said" "She said" bullshit is exactly that, bullshit.

Well at least this topic was interesting enough for you to follow it icon_smile.gif Shit has been kinda boring around here, we need a heated debate such as this.
Also I just think that he was being a dick, but the only reason I mentioned his name is because he's the one that brought it up, and I thought it should be discussed. I think it's interesting that certain people believe that the crew "owes" us. Not to contradict myself, but I guess they might owe an apology if they felt that they were doing something wrong, they could owe us a thank you for watching their videos, they could owe us money if they borrow it, they could owe a favor if someone else performs one, but to say that they owe us an update just because we buy stuff from the store.... that seems ridiculous.

Also go to trailerparkboys.com, and see how many times they update their site, and they have a lot more people working for them.

#20
Naoko

Naoko
  • Members
  • 353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK
QUOTE (embroisured @ May 19 2009, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe that saying that they are under strict obligation to provide us with a twitter is kinda dickish.


I never once said the PP crew are under strict obligation to provide anyone with anything. I said I believe they owe the fans for their support - I never said I believe they have to do anything in particular in order to portray that gratitude (EDIT: Just like the fans have many ways of portraying their gratitude, so will the crew). Twisting my words yet again. EDIT: Although I believe my suggestion of a PP Twitter is still a good idea and valid point of discussion. But it's just that, a suggestion.

QUOTE (embroisured @ May 19 2009, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also it's hilarious that he had to point out my typo, when he clearly spells things wrong because he just doesn't know how to spell the word properly.


I pointed it out because I think "Pwange" sounds funny when you say it out loud. Owange. Owaaannggee. Say it with me. Owwwwwaaannnggeee.


QUOTE (embroisured @ May 19 2009, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also, I normally would have just forgotten about it, but it is extremely annoying when every time you check your email you see a pm from some kid who loves to mindlessly argue


Just for everyone's information, I didn't reply to this guy's last response. But he still feels the need to send me messages calling me names.

QUOTE (embroisured - his latest PM)
YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DUMB. Obviously you owe pure pwnage, because they spend way more money on the fans than you do for them. Also everything you say is complete nonsense, and makes no sense. Also good job posting pms that noone cares about.


And I thought I was the hypocrite. Unless you're going to post something constructive in your own topic - instead of just creating it in an attempt to argue with me, it needs to be locked. Now.

EDIT:

You're derailing the thread (if it ever had any purpose but to try and argue with me) with your own pedantic attitude, by constantly twisting my words and by deliberately interpreting them incorrectly. Stop it, you're making a fool of yourself - and I feel that I'm doing the same by having to defend my integrity from the likes of you.

Edited by Naoko, 19 May 2009 - 12:10 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users