102 replies to this topic

[zalzaron]

No, it is handicapping yourself. It's the exact definition. That's why they're trying a new style of raid organization with the Argent Coliseum.

Let's take Sartharion, classic fight with hard modes. You can leave them all alive and the fight is totally different. That's what the hard modes are, they add different abilities etc to fights making them very different from their normal version.

This has nothing to do with handicapping yourself, it's not like they say "you can no longer use skill X", the fights are completly different in their hard modes. This talk about handicapping yourself just shows you havn't killed any hardmodes but just decided to imagine how they work.

And the hard-mode system has recieved almost universal praise from hardcore raiders and casual raiders, it's a huge succes. JFK once said that no matter what you hold a poll on, there will always be the 20% that is against it just out of principle, guess there always gotta be the sour grapes that just disagree with things even if they havn't experienced the content themselves.

Seriously please show us all the hardmodes you cleared? Or are you just saying stuff and your so far in you don't wanna admit you actually havn't done any of the content.

Lol, it's adding arbitrary rules to a fight and encounter. That's handicapping yourself. That's like going into Gruul without a hatefull strike tank, it's like doing Moroes without any CC. Or doing Maiden without cleanse ect.

Yet again, proof that there are people in this topic talking about stuff they don't know anything about. If you had actually done any of the hard modes you would know what you are saying makes no sense at all.

Again, just leave the topic if you havn't done the content. Why do some insist on commenting on content they havn't experienced?

True I haven't done "much" ulduar but the 10 man run I decided to join with my guild after I quit raiding I only died once outside of after a wipe was called because I did not know the proximity of exploding adds on the 2nd boss (the robot one). Thats pretty pathetic, karazhan/za would of kicked my ass the first time in not knowing anything (comparing difficulties of 10 mans).

Wrong, Karazhan would be 1-shotted from start to finish without any wipes in the situation you describe.

It's like you said. You left the game and came back when your guild had done all of the work for you and you leeched of their experience and progress. They held your hand and carried you through the instance.

Little newsflash, when you still had to attune new players to MH to replace guild members this shit happened all the time. What's that? Lady Vashj and Kael'Thas killed by raid groups carrying players along with them? Damn right it happened, and on a big scale aswell.

It's really beyond me what you are trying to prove here, because you know damn well that TBC allready allowed for guilds to carry there members through it without any experience. It's no suprise that your guild could carry you through the instance when they allready did all the practice for the fights without you.

I would gladly still play the game if you can still play the old content at their intended difficulty, for example level capping you inside the raid instance. Blizzards mentality of abandoning old raid content is so stupid. They even make you buy burning crusade still and you will not touch any of its content when you are at endgame. Any other mmo I played (FFXI) you can play all the content developed up to that point as long as you bought the respective expansions.

MMO's move forward and change, if you cannot accept this, then MMO's just arn't the genre for you. If an MMO starts looking back, it dies, ask DaoC.

And yeah, FFXI is just the perfect example of how an MMO should be...seriously.

There is a nice little boss in FFXI and i think it might just be perfect for alot of the "hardcore" players here. It's really hard, and takes alot of people to take on and the fight latsts...what was it now...

Ooh yeah, 18 fucking hours and the guild still wiped on it. So go and play FFXI for the reall hardcore experience with 18 hour boss fights where the guild actually had players going physically sick from playing to long, nice.

[Mighty_Chives]

Lol, it's adding arbitrary rules to a fight and encounter. That's handicapping yourself. That's like going into Gruul without a hatefull strike tank, it's like doing Moroes without any CC. Or doing Maiden without cleanse ect.

You get the point. It's pointless needless additions to make an easy fight hard. Hell I can turn all of wow's encounters into my own hard modes. It doesn't change the fact that it was still made around the casual players.

ok so xt002. The easiest hardmode and I'll assume you've done it.

Easy; dump light bombs/gavity watsits out of range of raid members, kill adds before they reach boss, kill boss. Take advantage of extra heart exposure damage.

hard; Dump light bombs/gravity wells in select positions, avoid viod zones and designate people to kill uhh little sparky dudes that deal high damage. Constantly burn boss (tighter enrage timer). No healing adds/bombs, damage is slightly higher.

In terms of WoW bosses, they seem like different bosses to me. It's only 'Arbitrary' depending on where you draw the line. Fuckin Razorscale largely reminds me of Onyxia yet they're different enough to be considered different bosses and not rehashed. Was it Arbitrary to have an NPC tank a boss in AQ20, or a MC'd npc similarly in Naxx? For Loatheb to block out healing or for Maex to reduce it with a poison?

When something is Arbitrary, it's because of a persons personal preferences. Which doesn't come in to play when the top guilds in the world (who have cleared all the content that you're a fanboy over) have said that comparitively, it's the hardest and extremely well tuned (talking about the actually hard hard-modes, not the stuff you've claimed to do, the stuff that you'll never do).

[pearlsea]

Wrong, Karazhan would be 1-shotted from start to finish without any wipes in the situation you describe.

It's like you said. You left the game and came back when your guild had done all of the work for you and you leeched of their experience and progress. They held your hand and carried you through the instance.

Little newsflash, when you still had to attune new players to MH to replace guild members this shit happened all the time. What's that? Lady Vashj and Kael'Thas killed by raid groups carrying players along with them? Damn right it happened, and on a big scale aswell.

It's really beyond me what you are trying to prove here, because you know damn well that TBC allready allowed for guilds to carry there members through it without any experience. It's no suprise that your guild could carry you through the instance when they allready did all the practice for the fights without you.

Karazhan (pre nerfs and before you had gear) was hard. Sure I technically got carried through ulduar but I did not have any difficulty with the encounters at all. I got bored from how easy and lenient the fights were. If you want to compare it with tier 5 raids (SSC/TK) I would never of gotten that bored as there were always things that could kill you if you were not doing them right.

Anyways its my opinion, burning crusade was perfect for me.On the otherhand WotLK; Ulduar was 5+ months late and boring, PvP feels diluted from the strategic game it use to be, classes are generic and boring, the game is abandoning its roots. Excuse me for not playing content that has hard modes that I find extremely boring.

When I got bored with my hunter until I made the switch to paladin when my guild was doing black temple and the last unkilled boss was illadin. I use to browse the internet or play other games (snes or whatever) whenever I got the chance to in downtime. I stopped doing it when I got interested in raiding with my prot/ret paladin. However I did the same thing the first time through in ulduar after a few hours, it was that boring I did not even come to the 2nd night clean up run (we wouldent of had to clean up if ulduar wasn't so fucking buggy), I went and play TF2 because I could not stand it anymore.

MMO's move forward and change, if you cannot accept this, then MMO's just arn't the genre for you. If an MMO starts looking back, it dies, ask DaoC.

And yeah, FFXI is just the perfect example of how an MMO should be...seriously.

There is a nice little boss in FFXI and i think it might just be perfect for alot of the "hardcore" players here. It's really hard, and takes alot of people to take on and the fight latsts...what was it now...

Ooh yeah, 18 fucking hours and the guild still wiped on it. So go and play FFXI for the reall hardcore experience with 18 hour boss fights where the guild actually had players going physically sick from playing to long, nice.

That boss now "rages" after 2 hours. Anyways theres 2 unkillable mysterious bosses in FFXI, big woop, everything else is doable and killed consistently. I'm not expecting everyone to like FFXI because the name is pretty niche when you see the alternative MMOs today but the way it handles old content is something that should be copied.

I would still play WoW if I could do the old content at its intended difficulty. I'm sure there is a large group of people who feel this way. You might not see a large concentration of them on this forum but they are out there.

Edited by pearlsea, 23 July 2009 - 04:15 PM.

[Sir Kyle Aziz]

I find it fucking hilarious that I'm a new fish for having played Vanilla to wotLK. I was never once carried. I've always been a top contender for DPS in every single raid. I was even fucking better then some sword rogues in TBC using Daggers. So choke on that fat dick. You come in here telling me I was carried, that I don't know what content I've done? You're trolling to hard there brah. You can go and keep sucking the teat of the worlds current best WoW players but I really don't care. All you're doing is trolling and flamming now.

The fact is I've done content, I know how hard it is, and it's pretty damn funny to see you guys trying to tell me I'm wrong when I only see you guys quoting the "What he said she said bullshit" stuff over and over. Hello, people here have experience. I've done everything (Except for end of Ulduar) I was unimpressed with the first few bosses and their 'hardmodes' so I quit. What's the point if I don't enjoy it, if I don't find it challenging? I've been playing WotLK since November Nov 13th and I have to wait nearly six months for 2-4 bosses that are really hard? Fuck that shit man. You wouldn't have seen the amount of people currently clearing every single thing like you do now, as you would have back in TBC. And that was 'easy' after all the nurfs and requirements removed.

So that's it. You can keep going on and on about what he said she said crapola, but it's still going to be a fucking joke.

[zalzaron]

Karazhan (pre nerfs and before you had gear) was hard. Sure I technically got carried through ulduar but I did not have any difficulty with the encounters at all. I got bored from how easy and lenient the fights were. If you want to compare it with tier 5 raids (SSC/TK) I would never of gotten that bored as there were always things that could kill you if you were not doing them right.

Anyways its my opinion, burning crusade was perfect for me.On the otherhand WotLK; Ulduar was 5+ months late and boring, PvP feels diluted from the strategic game it use to be, classes are generic and boring, the game is abandoning its roots. Excuse me for not playing content that has hard modes that I find extremely boring.

When I got bored with my hunter until I made the switch to paladin when my guild was doing black temple and the last unkilled boss was illadin. I use to browse the internet or play other games (snes or whatever) whenever I got the chance to in downtime. I stopped doing it when I got interested in raiding with my prot/ret paladin. However I did the same thing the first time through in ulduar after a few hours, it was that boring I did not even come to the 2nd night clean up run (we wouldent of had to clean up if ulduar wasn't so fucking buggy), I went and play TF2 because I could not stand it anymore.

So you simply havn't cleared the content nor do you enjoy raiding anymore. Noone of this makes Ulduar a bad instance by any length. You havn't played it, your opinion is thus not to be considered valid. One can also see from your text that perhaps raiding in general has just lost it's touch with you.

Sooner or later even WoW can get boring and maybe that time just got around for you. If you just take an objective look at Ulduar, you see it does tons of things better then TBC, and that it is in all respects a very good instance, and one of the best raids WoW has ever seen.

That boss now "rages" after 2 hours. Anyways theres 2 unkillable mysterious bosses in FFXI, big woop, everything else is doable and killed consistently. I'm not expecting everyone to like FFXI because the name is pretty niche when you see the alternative MMOs today but the way it handles old content is something that should be copied.

2 hour enrage timers are still retarded and in no way a good design. Seriously could i get a hands up from everyone in this topic that would like to do a 2 hour long bossfight?

And how is Final Fantasy a niche name? It's one of the most popular RPG's out there.

I would still play WoW if I could do the old content at its intended difficulty. I'm sure there is a large group of people who feel this way. You might not see a large concentration of them on this forum but they are out there.

People often say this, but it's generally a lie. You might not be aware that your lying, but what your saying isn't true.

What you ask for is not what you want. You awnt to experience the feelings that you remember having from vanilla WoW. However due to nostalgia, something nobody can truly avoid, you remember the feelings you had from vanilla as 10x more powerfull then they ever really were, and nothing can ever match up to these fantasy standards.

People only want feelings, they want things because they give them a certain feeling. You want to relive the feelings you had when you played vanilla WoW, but due to nostalgia those expectations have risen beyond anything that is possible, and even an old-school server is not able to deliver thesse feelings.

There are reasons that even now after all this time, there arn't any guilds out there full of 60's in 60's gear that only want to play old-schoo style. Think about it, there are more then 11 million people playing it, yet no guild out there that really plays the old content with a bunch of 60's? Does that alone not tell you that there is no demand for it? If there was any true demand, would there not be someone that supplied it and thus have a flourishing guild full of 60's?

As i said before, the moment an MMO moves backwards, it dies, it has always been like this, and always be like this. Blizzard should not listen to the few people that scream for old-school servers, because it would only make people leave the game, not gain new players.

Players that might not have much to do and be bored right now might say, give me an old server. Let's assume blizz complies and makes one. They transfer there and play their old server for a month or so but realise this isn't what they wanted either, and that nostalgia blinded them. Then they decide that the new content is not for them, but the old content isn't great for them either, so they just leave WoW forever, rather then stop playing for a month or 2 and then starting with renewed energy.

I find it fucking hilarious that I'm a new fish for having played Vanilla to wotLK. I was never once carried. I've always been a top contender for DPS in every single raid. I was even fucking better then some sword rogues in TBC using Daggers. So choke on that fat dick. You come in here telling me I was carried, that I don't know what content I've done? You're trolling to hard there brah. You can go and keep sucking the teat of the worlds current best WoW players but I really don't care. All you're doing is trolling and flamming now.

After all you typed i find this to be unlikely. First you make all these mistakes about raids and how hard modes work, and now you claim to be some super raider that has seen it all from start to finish. Well except Ulduar the topic of discussion ofcourse, very convenient. Really is very usefull cause now you can pretend to be experienced, but have an excuse for not knowing wtf your talking about when it comes to ulduar, very nice.

Even if you have cleared everything from MC > Naxx10/25, this is about Ulduar, and how it is in all aspects one of the most difficult instances in WoW ever. You have allready admitted you don't know anything about Ulduar, so why do you insist on acting like you know what your talking about? You havn't even cleared normal mode ulduar so why do you act like you know what your talking about?

The fact is I've done content, I know how hard it is, and it's pretty damn funny to see you guys trying to tell me I'm wrong when I only see you guys quoting the "What he said she said bullshit" stuff over and over. Hello, people here have experience. I've done everything (Except for end of Ulduar) I was unimpressed with the first few bosses and their 'hardmodes' so I quit. What's the point if I don't enjoy it, if I don't find it challenging? I've been playing WotLK since November Nov 13th and I have to wait nearly six months for 2-4 bosses that are really hard? Fuck that shit man. You wouldn't have seen the amount of people currently clearing every single thing like you do now, as you would have back in TBC. And that was 'easy' after all the nurfs and requirements removed.

Do you still not understand how Ulduar was designed? Ill expain it again, just try and follow this time cause i can't keep repeating myself 24/7.

The bosses in ulduar have been designed to be stronger then naxx, but not so strong that they would require months and months of wiping per boss to learn. This allows casuals to progress and move further and experience the lore (aka have fun). Now usually an instance was too easy giving hardcores no fun, or too hard shutting out the casuals (aka majority).

Now everyone can have fun. The casuals can clear the place and feel the lore. The hardcores can get better loot and have very difficulty fights.

Like i said there are only 5 guilds or so that have cleared the Alone in the dark achievement, why don't you go and do that? Ooh it's not fun when it's TOO hard now is it? You shouldn't complain about the game being to easy when you CHOOSE to avoid the difficult fights. It's your own choice to stick to the easy bosses and avoid the tough fights, don't take it out on ulduar.

So that's it. You can keep going on and on about what he said she said crapola, but it's still going to be a fucking joke.

Again, go play ulduar and clear it, or admit that you don't know wtf your talking about.

Edited by zalzaron, 23 July 2009 - 07:28 PM.

[TheShadowNinja]

So are we arguing about personal preference now?

[otaku_4_life]

Again, go play ulduar and clear it, or admit that you don't know wtf your talking about.

My guild got the server second Yogg25 kill before I quit raiding (I was installing my new harddrive the day they killed him, so I missed the actual kill ). I think I know what I'm talking about.

Let's say I asked you to catch me while playing a game of tag. This is a "normal mode". Now let's say I ask you to catch me while hopping on one leg. This is a "hard mode".

Edited by otaku_4_life, 23 July 2009 - 07:52 PM.

[FPSconor]

Well I came to the conclusion to never come back to WoW because it just isn't worth it in end-game. I am currently playing SC and it will keep my busy till the second comes.

[zalzaron]

My guild got the server second Yogg25 kill before I quit raiding (I was installing my new harddrive the day they killed him, so I missed the actual kill ). I think I know what I'm talking about.

Let's say I asked you to catch me while playing a game of tag. This is a "normal mode". Now let's say I ask you to catch me while hopping on one leg. This is a "hard mode".

Again that is what YOU think they are. The actuall hard modes don't resemble anything that you have so far described.

It's more like playing a game of tag and then asking me to play a game of tennis, they are nothing alike.

You have repeated yourself plenty of times now, and you have shown that you don't know what hard modes are, just drop it. I know what hard modes look like in the fantasy world between your ears, but in the WoW they have nothing to do with handicapping yourself.

[otaku_4_life]

Again that is what YOU think they are. The actuall hard modes don't resemble anything that you have so far described.

It's more like playing a game of tag and then asking me to play a game of tennis, they are nothing alike.

You have repeated yourself plenty of times now, and you have shown that you don't know what hard modes are, just drop it. I know what hard modes look like in the fantasy world between your ears, but in the WoW they have nothing to do with handicapping yourself.

You have an incredibly thick head. They are exactly handicapping yourself. I don't know why it's so hard to understand.

I'll use Mimiron's hard mode as an example. You can kill him normally, without any activations. But as soon as you press the red button, he becomes more powerful (which would in turn make you weaker). It's exactly like the handicap setting in fighting games. Mimiron's is maxed out, while yours is low.

Now imagine a boss activation involves lopping off your arm instead of pressing a red button. It's the same thing.

Edited by otaku_4_life, 24 July 2009 - 03:48 PM.

[BattleSoup]

Coming

[zalzaron]

You have an incredibly thick head. They are exactly handicapping yourself. I don't know why it's so hard to understand.

I'll use Mimiron's hard mode as an example. You can kill him normally, without any activations. But as soon as you press the red button, he becomes more powerful (which would in turn make you weaker). It's exactly like the handicap setting in fighting games. Mimiron's is maxed out, while yours is low.

Now imagine a boss activation involves lopping off your arm instead of pressing a red button. It's the same thing.

By your definition sports are no fun because in for example tennis you handicap yourself by putting up a net, forcing players to hit a small ball, use rackets, and force them to even hit the ball inside the court.

Why all these handicaps? Can't we just throw a ball to the other side? That's so much more fun...


You clearly don't understand the difference between a boss fight changing and a handicap. Your definition is so wide you can include almost anything from sports to games.

Good example for RTS games for example, do you consider the bot settings from Easy > Hard handicap systems bad aswell?

And since you have such a HUGE definition of handicap, wich includes thousands of different subjects, why is it bad? Is it bad if an RTS provides an Easy > hard setting? If not, then why is it bad when WoW provides it?

[otaku_4_life]

By your definition sports are no fun because in for example tennis you handicap yourself by putting up a net, forcing players to hit a small ball, use rackets, and force them to even hit the ball inside the court.

Why all these handicaps? Can't we just throw a ball to the other side? That's so much more fun...


You clearly don't understand the difference between a boss fight changing and a handicap. Your definition is so wide you can include almost anything from sports to games.

Good example for RTS games for example, do you consider the bot settings from Easy > Hard handicap systems bad aswell?

And since you have such a HUGE definition of handicap, wich includes thousands of different subjects, why is it bad? Is it bad if an RTS provides an Easy > hard setting? If not, then why is it bad when WoW provides it?

There's two versions of the fights, though (normal and hard). There is only a single rule-set in professional sports. If there was only one version of a fight, it would be legit. But hard modes require you to do something that cripples your own performance.

This is akin to telling a professional sprinter to take steroids in a 1v1 race while you get nothing for performance enhancement. If you want to beat the sprinter, you do it with him not taking steroids (normal mode). If you want a "challenge", you give him steroids and try and beat him. It isn't fair, and it certainly isn't fun.

Edited by otaku_4_life, 24 July 2009 - 07:07 PM.

[cadetduke]

By your definition sports are no fun because in for example tennis you handicap yourself by putting up a net, forcing players to hit a small ball, use rackets, and force them to even hit the ball inside the court.

Why all these handicaps? Can't we just throw a ball to the other side? That's so much more fun...


You clearly don't understand the difference between a boss fight changing and a handicap. Your definition is so wide you can include almost anything from sports to games.

Good example for RTS games for example, do you consider the bot settings from Easy > Hard handicap systems bad aswell?

And since you have such a HUGE definition of handicap, wich includes thousands of different subjects, why is it bad? Is it bad if an RTS provides an Easy > hard setting? If not, then why is it bad when WoW provides it?

That's the dumbest argument I've hear, probably because it isn't what otaku is saying at all. You need to reread everything he's typed, especially the last one, because everything he's said so far is dead on.

[zalzaron]

There's two versions of the fights, though (normal and hard). There is only a single rule-set in professional sports. If there was only one version of a fight, it would be legit. But hard modes require you to do something that cripples your own performance.

If a boss becomes more difficult, how are you crippeling yourself? The boss just becomes more difficult, you are not affected. But like in your last few posts your reasoning is:

Boss becomes harder = You become weaker = You handicap yourself.

Even if a boss fight changes completly you would still call it a handicap. If a boss turned into a completly different form, went to a different place, used different abilities, you would still call it a handicap.

Like i said, bosses often change alot in their hard modes and they provide the hardcore guilds with more difficulty, but also allow the casual guilds to kill bosses, it's the perfect system. 1 instance that allows both hardcore and casual guilds to have fun.

You basically want boss fights to just be made for the hardcore the first time around, and i think that's just ridiculous. They now have a system wich provides for both the casual and the hardcore players, and you want them to simply remake the bosses so only the hardcore can enjoy them, ridiculous.

Ulduar is one of the most difficult instances the game has ever had, and to fully clear it, you need to be apart of best 5 guilds in the world, yet it also provides enough encounters to keep casual guilds busy with the normal route of progression.

All the top guilds have spoken nothing but good of the hardmode system and even casuals have enjoyed the instance, it provides for EVERYONE.

And you want to change that back because...you don't like the word handicap? You just want 1 line of bosses with just 1 mode because...that's what your used to? Everyone can see this is a great system that caters to both casuals and hardcore players. Just about every game in the world has settings like Easy-medium-hard, but when WoW does it, it's a handicap and thus not fun?

[otaku_4_life]

Boss becomes harder = You become weaker = You handicap yourself.

I think you'd better look up the definition of handicap.

–noun
1. a race or other contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages of weight, distance, time, etc., are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning.
2. the disadvantage or advantage itself.
3. any disadvantage that makes success more difficult: The main handicap of our business is lack of capital.

[FPSconor]

Um we can start a new thread titled "Definition of handicap and its place in life". This thread is named "worth coming back" for the reason that I would like to know that question. A flame war that is completely off topic does not belong here.

[Mighty_Chives]

3. any disadvantage that makes success more difficult:

By this definition that goes for every single boss in the game that's harder than another boss though.

Muru is just kill'jaden except for handicaps. He uses spells more effectively to his advantage which causes success to be more difficult.

I just don't know why this is relevent in a discussion about wow bosses lol. And wtf is with everybody on the forums these days coming up with the shittest analogies in history.

[zalzaron]

I think you'd better look up the definition of handicap.

–noun
1. a race or other contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages of weight, distance, time, etc., are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning.
2. the disadvantage or advantage itself.
3. any disadvantage that makes success more difficult: The main handicap of our business is lack of capital.

You have an incredibly thick head. They are exactly handicapping yourself. I don't know why it's so hard to understand.

I'll use Mimiron's hard mode as an example. You can kill him normally, without any activations. But as soon as you press the red button, he becomes more powerful (which would in turn make you weaker). It's exactly like the handicap setting in fighting games. Mimiron's is maxed out, while yours is low.

Now imagine a boss activation involves lopping off your arm instead of pressing a red button. It's the same thing.

Again, your definition is so wide, it includes tons of things.


Are Easy-medium-hard settings for RTS games bad? Do they make them less fun? Are they considered handicapping yourself, or are they just difficulty settings?

Again, in WoW hard modes you face more difficult versions of bosses who are often completely different fights then before. Your not handicapping yourself, the boss just becomes stronger. Again your not being specific and thus not making alot of sense. Is Ragnaros no fun because he's just a handicapped version of Garr? Try being more specific with your posts and make actuall points because your being so vague that it's hard to even make out what you are trying to say.

WoW hard modes are enjoyed for the same reason that people enjoy being able to set their bots opponents from easy > hard, because it allows they to play a game at their difficulty level, letting them play a game without it being too hard or too easy. WoW isn't doing anything here that hasn't allready existed in some form in more or less ALL game genre's in the world. Why is it bad when WoW does it?

[TheShadowNinja]

I'd have to agree with zalzaron on this one.

According to the definition, hardmodes are not handicaps as you are not disadvantaged in any way. The boss just becomes stronger.

Hardmodes just add new conditions to the battle that must be met or makes the attacks hit harder or faster.

However, otaku's point still stands.