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gg CPL, glhf CGS


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#61
A.Phobos

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yeah...well, what do you expect, it's the CPL.
Sponsors get the say.

#62
Marrin

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It really is just too bad that corporate greed has to get in the way of something that could become a new global pasttime. If companies could be more concerned for the welfare of the gamers (who are ultimately their customers and thusly their source of livelihood) than for the welfare of their bank accounts, a working professional gaming league could become a reality.

I was trying to talk to my parents about this. Now, you have to understand, my parents aren't terribly behind the times as far as gaming is concerned, but they do not see it as anything more than an activity for teenagers and the occasional immature 20 something. Before we spam the hate train, also understand that my parents just don't understand how big of an industry gaming has become. They also don't see the potential for something like a working professional league.

I kind of lost my train of thought and can't remember where I was going with that.. lol.

Anyway, a concern of mine is that a professional league could easily be modeled after any other sports league right now, except that sponsors don't often take these leagues seriously. We see this in reality when we don't get paid for winning tournaments or when we hear about gamers getting left out to dry by scamming "sponsors".

I'm rapidly losing focus right now, but please let me know what you think about this.


#63
pava

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QUOTE (Marrin @ Mar 24 2008, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It really is just too bad that corporate greed has to get in the way of something that could become a new global pasttime. If companies could be more concerned for the welfare of the gamers (who are ultimately their customers and thusly their source of livelihood) than for the welfare of their bank accounts, a working professional gaming league could become a reality.

I was trying to talk to my parents about this. Now, you have to understand, my parents aren't terribly behind the times as far as gaming is concerned, but they do not see it as anything more than an activity for teenagers and the occasional immature 20 something. Before we spam the hate train, also understand that my parents just don't understand how big of an industry gaming has become. They also don't see the potential for something like a working professional league.

I kind of lost my train of thought and can't remember where I was going with that.. lol.

Anyway, a concern of mine is that a professional league could easily be modeled after any other sports league right now, except that sponsors don't often take these leagues seriously. We see this in reality when we don't get paid for winning tournaments or when we hear about gamers getting left out to dry by scamming "sponsors".

I'm rapidly losing focus right now, but please let me know what you think about this.



Im not sure where you're going with this tbh icon_razz.gif

There are tonns of professional leagues/events, teams that get paid a good sallary and so on. Cpl just happened to fuck up, and it sucks, but it doesnt change much.

#64
kippy smif

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If the sponsors want a gaming league any gaming league to feature their games at events that's great that doesn't mean they have to be the focus of the competition, I mean throw up a couple of demo booths but keep the focus of the tournament on games of the league's choice.

#65
Marrin

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yeah, please ignore about half of what I said in that post. i was falling asleep while writing it and didn't have to sense to go back and redo it.

basically what i meant was this:

I have read numerous stories about gamers who don't get paid by their sponsors because as of right now e-sports is unregulated by the law. There really is no legally binding contract (unless one exists, in which case there is a legally binding contract) between a sponsor and a gamer from the things I've heard.

I would chalk the CPL's failure up to its dependence on Sierra. Correct me if I am wrong, but what I have been picking up is that pressure was put on them to choose the games they did and that caused them to go under. Is this correct or not? I would love to know.

Another thing that I had mentioned was the idea of one all encompassing professional gaming league. I'm not really sure how it would work out, mostly because of the split in game genres and whatnot. The NFL plays American Football, the MLB plays baseball, and a gaming league would, in my opinion, need to choose at least one genre if not one specific game. Now, because of the vast number of games available there would need to be some kind of consensus on which games are considered to be played "professionally" and which games are purely recreational.

Sponsorship and Advertising would obviously have to play a big part in a league's development, but I don't think that they should influence very heavily exactly which games are played.

I think thats enough for now, if that is any more coherent than my last post. Any thoughts?


#66
pava

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QUOTE (Marrin @ Mar 24 2008, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yeah, please ignore about half of what I said in that post. i was falling asleep while writing it and didn't have to sense to go back and redo it.

basically what i meant was this:

I have read numerous stories about gamers who don't get paid by their sponsors because as of right now e-sports is unregulated by the law. There really is no legally binding contract (unless one exists, in which case there is a legally binding contract) between a sponsor and a gamer from the things I've heard.

I would chalk the CPL's failure up to its dependence on Sierra. Correct me if I am wrong, but what I have been picking up is that pressure was put on them to choose the games they did and that caused them to go under. Is this correct or not? I would love to know.

Another thing that I had mentioned was the idea of one all encompassing professional gaming league. I'm not really sure how it would work out, mostly because of the split in game genres and whatnot. The NFL plays American Football, the MLB plays baseball, and a gaming league would, in my opinion, need to choose at least one genre if not one specific game. Now, because of the vast number of games available there would need to be some kind of consensus on which games are considered to be played "professionally" and which games are purely recreational.

Sponsorship and Advertising would obviously have to play a big part in a league's development, but I don't think that they should influence very heavily exactly which games are played.

I think thats enough for now, if that is any more coherent than my last post. Any thoughts?



Yes indeed, much more coherent ;>

One of CPL's biggest mistakes was dropping CS 1.6. 1.6 was (and still is tbh) the biggest game in a competitive aspect, with pro events, pro teams etc. But 1.6 is soon a 10year old game and the sponsors cant show off their new products on a 10 year old game when a voodo2 could run the game just as smooth. This is why they switched to source in the first place. After that CPL has gone down hill. Still though, most major events still feature 1.6 as their main game, but have multiple others along side it, while CPL for a long time only was a 1.6 event. ESWC and WCG for instance both have multiple games. CGS however doesn't. CGS' game selection is (at least i hope it is, for their sace) very much decided by sponsors.. And as i said earlier, the games, at least CS:S have been modified for viewing pleasure.


I see where you're coming from when it comes to leagues. The closest right now is CGS, which as far as i understand it, usually works as a a league, except at the main events when they operate as a tournament styled competition. Pro gaming has always been about events/tournaments, the few leagues that have been have always been in the shaddow or just ignored due to low prize money.

As for contracts, all pro teams have contracts with their players , but maybe you meant a contract with the players and the event? If so, you could be right.

Meh, this turned out messy but whatever icon_smile.gif


#67
Marrin

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nah i see where you are coming from, and i agree.

i believe most of the stories i've heard about bad sponsorships were scams to begin with, the alleged sponsors never intended to pay their teams a dime.

from my limited CAL-O experience, I think a similar formatted regular season schedule would be a really cool thing for a gaming league. have a few months of matches that determine overall rank, but then start up a double elimination playoff schedule for the post season. I believe that depending on how the brackets were generated and how many teams/players were in the league, you could determine places down as far as you wanted to with consolation matches.


#68
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QUOTE (Marrin @ Mar 24 2008, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have read numerous stories about gamers who don't get paid by their sponsors because as of right now e-sports is unregulated by the law. There really is no legally binding contract (unless one exists, in which case there is a legally binding contract) between a sponsor and a gamer from the things I've heard.


There are.
And like that, he was gone.

#69
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can you show some examples?

i can dig up some of the stories that i read but it would take a minute because its been a while and i was actually thinking about sleep.


#70
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RIP CPL,

selecting crappy games is teh_end....

#71
sw1tch^

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as much as you want to hate on CPL, you should be thanking it if anything.

CPL started about ten years ago. Sure, it had it's recent problems, money laundering, failing to pay prize money to top finishers, and of course, sponsorship issues, etc.

But, if the CPL hadn't started up, it's very likely we wouldn't have competitive gaming where it is today.

the CPL started with Quake and CS 1.6, it was the first and only tournament to show how big competitive gaming was.

I'll agree, that CPL went downhill in around 2005, but before that, it was the best tournament in the world.

Oh, and about the topic of selecting terrible games. Sponsors will not sponsor tournaments using old games. Sponsors want them to use new games, games that require better video cards, and hardware, so they can push their products. It's only going to get worse from here.

Don't expect 'amazing' games in tournaments in the years to come. Look at WCG 2008 game selection, it's terrible. Sure, it has a lot of RTS, but does a tournament need 4 RTS's? The amount of terrible games extremely overrides the amount of good games.

MLG is NOT using Brawl in it's competitive LAN circuit, it only has it's online league this year.

#72
Marrin

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i guess the real answer is for the companies to get back to making good games.

i mean, i think that Call of Duty 4 is a good FPS. maybe not the BEST, but it doesnt suck.

i think starcraft 2 will be pretty decent, since when has blizzard put out a game for the PC/Mac that has failed to generate a solid fanbase? Starcraft is wildly popular 10 years after the fact, the warcraft series has been awesome all the way through from an RTS to a cash cow MMO, and Diablo has set the bar for RPGs everywhere.

so i think that not ALL new games suck, its just that these leagues are failing to get the right sponsors.


#73
pava

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QUOTE (pava @ Mar 24 2008, 07:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The CPL made some stupid mistakes torwards the end, but it will always be remembered as the thing that started it all. Competitive E-Sport should be _VERY_ greatful. As for CGS, it's cool that so much money is involved with gaming, but the whole setup stinks. The games are modified to please the viewers. Cs with MR9, 1min roundtime and startmoney 10k, or something like that. Crappy game selection. ANd best players in the world? Hehe. I think not..



Selfquote icon_razz.gif

#74
Oreo_teh_wolf

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Hey, I like F.E.A.R.! icon_razz.gif

Anyway, with that aside, I didn't really care for the CPL. I was playing other games (UT2k4) and the CPL at the time felt exclusively catered to CS. Never once did anyone ask me in UT if I was in CAL-O. But it seems like half of the ingame chatting for CS follows that route. Not that I care, but it just seemed to prove just how much CAL and the CPL were in bed together with CS.

I agree that the CGS is handling the sport poorly. It seems like they are pushing it to be a spectacle more than anything, and every time I watch a broadcast of theirs I facepalm.jpg at their neon lights and commentary. Yes, things like this will happen in a broadcast gaming competition. But at this point of progressing the sport, we really should be putting focus on the game. The "Korea" stage of gaming is still many years off in this culture.

Also, side note: I play a ton of fighting games, and yes, DoA is a button masher. A button masher that consists of waiting for your enemy to screw up. But once they do, mash away. Just my opinion, of course.

#75
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QUOTE (Marrin @ Mar 24 2008, 11:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
can you show some examples?

i can dig up some of the stories that i read but it would take a minute because its been a while and i was actually thinking about sleep.


Club contracts and player contracts cannot be shown to the public, it is against the terms. The majority of actual pro teams have contracts (much like regular athletes), and the sponsors have contracts with the clubs.

G7 even released one. Click Me and Scroll
And like that, he was gone.

#76
pava

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QUOTE (Oreo_teh_wolf @ Mar 25 2008, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree that the CGS is handling the sport poorly. It seems like they are pushing it to be a spectacle more than anything, and every time I watch a broadcast of theirs I facepalm.jpg at their neon lights and commentary. Yes, things like this will happen in a broadcast gaming competition. But at this point of progressing the sport, we really should be putting focus on the game. The "Korea" stage of gaming is still many years off in this culture.

Also, side note: I play a ton of fighting games, and yes, DoA is a button masher. A button masher that consists of waiting for your enemy to screw up. But once they do, mash away. Just my opinion, of course.



Indeed. CGS has become it's own little world basically. Imo it's one step forward and two steps back. As you pointed out, Korea has a much better scene. Not only Starcraft either. When WEG was held in Korea it was a major success. Players have huge fanbases based on skill.

#77
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Great read Jarett icon_biggrin.gif

One day CGS will decide to use a couple of different games other then fifa, doa, and forza.. and get games like guitar hero, tetris ds, cod4, halo or something! I'm still going to stick around their site and follow the season even though I won't be watching it because I don't have direct TV.



#78
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QUOTE (sw1tch^ @ Mar 25 2008, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
as much as you want to hate on CPL, you should be thanking it if anything.

CPL started about ten years ago. Sure, it had it's recent problems, money laundering, failing to pay prize money to top finishers, and of course, sponsorship issues, etc.

But, if the CPL hadn't started up, it's very likely we wouldn't have competitive gaming where it is today.


Twin Galaxies are the ones that everybody should be thanking. It started 27 years ago.

#79
The Colonel

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Twin Galaxies had no effect on PC competitive gaming. We can thank Korea and CPL.
And like that, he was gone.

#80
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I am still waiting on the Prize pay out from CPL Summer 2007. My guess is I will never get it. I don't have anything good to say about CPL, just glad others won't have to put up with their shit like myself and some others have.
I less than three the internet.




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