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Televised e-sports in 2008


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#21
alethioS

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Hello all!

I've been a long time PurePwnage fan, been following the series since it was first advertised on Xfire around episode 3.

I'm a huge fan, eagerly awaiting every episode that you guys release. You really need to come to New Zealand!

I've signed up because I noticed that Jarret mentioned the GomTV Star Invitational Tournament.

Starcraft, the game which could be quite easily given the title "National Sport" of Korea, is an immensely popular RTS created by Blizzard in 1998. The game is still going strong today with a huge international fanbase. The huge popularity is largely due to the almost infinite repeatability, and amazing strategic capabilities the game possesses.

Koreans have latched onto this game, with some becoming so good at it, that they have formed teams. These teams are professionally run (the players earn huge salaries), and the players practice around 12 hours a day.

Unfortunately, the Korean scene has been almost impossible to break into. Only a handful of players have ever managed it, and no commentators.

Now, GomTV has annouced the Star Invitational Tournament. The tournament gathers 16 of the finest starcraft players together. The outcome is almost impossible to predict (thats how good these players are). Whatsmore, the tournament is to be commentated on by Tasteless, a frequent and highly accomplished english commentator who has succeeded in doing what others could not. He's broken into the Korean scene and has this tournament. If he does well, and the english feed gets many hits, we'll be seeing more of him, and other things like it.

It's a huge deal for him, and while he has the entire TeamLiquid community behind him, we want as much support for this guy as possible.

For those of you who enjoyed playing starcraft, for those of you who enjoy RTS games in general, for everybody gamer: Watch these games tonight. I assure you that you won't be disappointed.

Click here to be taken to the place where you can watch these games live.

#22
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great topic i surprisingly have no idea where video games and television should go as far as direction im actually very interested to see where this goes in the future

#23
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Eye candy, Why not.

QUOTE (Mares @ Aug 22 2008, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
kuro is MY LOVABOY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


#24
Gillz

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A very excellent post Jarett.

First thing though, I was surprised, and not surprised at the same time that World Of Warcraft was dropped for the 2008 CGS selection. I don't know if you mis-read something, or if the post on the site is wrong, but from what I can tell, there's only 4 games in CGS this year.

The CGS has done something that no one else has done, made Gaming MORE mainstream, and opened the eyes of the general public to gaming as a sport. It's good to see players and teams getting salaries. $30,000 a year + winnnings is nothing bad at all.

Unfortunately, CGS has dumbed down e-sports, and has only chosen the sports that look GOOD on television, something we just have to deal with. CGS has put a lot of money into it, and unlike WSVG, won't shut down.

I created a table, it's called "What would CGS Do?" I'll post it at the end of this.

CEVO will probably stay online, but so far CEVO is a good league, not many problems with it at all.

WCG - Now the game selection hasn't been chosen, but we can only hope they did what they did last year, and for my sake, throw in Quake 3, and if they HAVE to, I'll suffer with Quake 4 or UT3. WCG did chose some good, complex, interesting games like Starcraft, and isn't worried about what looks good, WCG cares about what people want to play. Maybe I'll be seeing a certain someone in a certain finals? But, that's if WCG puts Tetris in as one of their games icon_wink.gif

MLG, as much as I just absolute hate it, and as much as other people hate it, as well as console FPS's, it's the ONLY hope to see Smash Bros Brawl in a good sized Tournament. With MLG giving players salaries to their shitty excuse of a game called Halo (Halo has NOTHING that makes it a competitive shooter, other then the guns) we might see salaries given to Brawl players. MLG even picked up a deal with ESPN, so it's obviously growing. I only want to see it grow if Brawl is put in there.

It's a shame the way e-sports is going though, I understand your pain. WCG is the ONLY league I've seen that is very large, and cares about what players want to play. If WCG was ANYTHING like CGS, they wouldn't be putting in games like CNC3 and Starcraft.

Of course, the silent killer seems to be ESWC. Never has a grand finals been SO large and amazing. ESWC 2007 was truly an eye opener, and a sigh of relief. Seeing that large stage, with those tons of seats filled with fans, literally thousands of screaming people, make lots of people think "Wow....it's finally happening". ESWC doesn't have a lot of games in it, but it's still choosing games like Quake and WC3 (Although most people rather see Starcraft in there).

I do understand your opinions on FPS's taking less skill, when you compare two of the hardest games of each genre in 1v1, that being Starcraft and Quake 3, each one has ups and downs. RTS's are an extreme amount of thought, way more then a FPS. But, an FPS still requires timing of items and armours, knowing your opponents location, but the biggest difference is that Quake is a much more physical game. You need to have extreme amounts of accuracy. For example, Quakecon 2007, Stermy vs Griffin, Quake 3, Griffin keps dominating the map of items, and armours. He was making every intelligent move he could, playing chess like a master. Unfortunately, Stermy has absolutely the most amazing aim out of almost any Quake player, and just kept dominating Griffin over and over. Even though you can play it smart, FPS can reward you with a win, with excellent physical aim.

We can only hope WCG chooses some good game like last year, and also hope that MLG picks up Brawl.

Anyway, here is my chart of "Will CGS Use It?"

Does it look good?
Yes - SWEET, put it in.
No - We don't want it.

Do People Play It?
Yes - Sweet, put it in.
No - Who cares, it looks good, right?

Are the rules simple?
Yes - Sweet, slap it in there!
No - Okay, well...

Can we dumb down the rules?
Yes - Okay, put it in!
No - Don't want it.

Is it an RTS?
Yes - Don't want it.
No - SWEET, does it run in 1080i?

Will our double-digit IQ demographic understand it?
Yes - Alright, throw a Mountian Dew ad in there too.
No - Don't want it.

Is it a 1v1 FPS?
Yes - Don't want it, too hard for our audience to understand
No - Sweet, wait, it looks good, right?

Is there a similar game to yours?
Yes - Okay, we might take it
No - Perfect!

Which game do people play more, yours or your competitions?
Ours - Good!
Theirs - Fuck it...

Will you pay us more then your competitions?
Yes - Throw it in!
No - Well, we might take it, we just have to make sure it looks good.

#25
Ratsacker

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Wowzer, Cast is going all out on blog posts this week. Good to see.

Reading now.

Alrighty,
First part that really stuck out for me was the lol i got at the blow at the frag dolls, And with what i know of them, I'd have to say GG, And do so.

Competitive gaming on mainstream media i have to agree, It'd be good to see more of a wider genre, But It'd be great to see ANYTHING in Australia.
Im stuck on console FPS and what not for now, Until i can afford a PC that dosnt suck, And have no issues with either, Personally i prefer FPS Console and RTS on PC.
Im going to need to hunt down replays of all the GoW stuff.

Anyway, Good post. icon_smile.gif
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Part Of The Original You Cookie Is Remembering Thread, First Page Infact
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End.

#26
Piratey

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First, I wouldn't condemn MLG just because of this year's selection of games.

Up until now they've had both Halo 2 and Melee. Weither or not you like console shooters, you can't deny Halo 2 has great depth and a very large level of skill and teamwork involved in competitive play. (I don't like the game much, but I see why people do.)

Melee is possibly the best fighter ever made too.

MLG will almost definitely add Melee for one more season, or take on Brawl.

Don't make fun of their game list before it's finalized...


I agree with you that RTS would also be fun to watch, but I think it's not gonna turn of for a few more years. Right now North American gaming leagues just want any exposure they can get, and your average joe sitting on the couch at home isn't going to want to watch someone using the latest build order in an RTS, but maybe (just maybe) he'll watch some people get gunned up in Halo.

It kinda sucks, but what can we do at this point?

If you want to watch some good games buy an EVO dvd, or download replays or whatever.
-SOL

#27
alethioS

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QUOTE (Piratey @ Feb 17 2008, 06:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First, I wouldn't condemn MLG just because of this year's selection of games.

Up until now they've had both Halo 2 and Melee. Weither or not you like console shooters, you can't deny Halo 2 has great depth and a very large level of skill and teamwork involved in competitive play. (I don't like the game much, but I see why people do.)

Melee is possibly the best fighter ever made too.

MLG will almost definitely add Melee for one more season, or take on Brawl.

Don't make fun of their game list before it's finalized...


I agree with you that RTS would also be fun to watch, but I think it's not gonna turn of for a few more years. Right now North American gaming leagues just want any exposure they can get, and your average joe sitting on the couch at home isn't going to want to watch someone using the latest build order in an RTS, but maybe (just maybe) he'll watch some people get gunned up in Halo.

It kinda sucks, but what can we do at this point?

If you want to watch some good games buy an EVO dvd, or download replays or whatever.


I'd just like to make this point:

Obviously a vast majority of RTS titles are concerned only with build orders and macro. Find a game though that encapsulates that aspect, while also requiring micro, game sense and to some extent.. luck. I would argue that there is the occasional RTS out there that is as strategic as chess, as fast paced as Halo and requires all the skill of a professional athlete to play at a high level.

I hate to push this, makes me feel like some cheap advertiser... but make the effort to watch a few of tonights Starcraft games, I think you will agree with me that it could indeed appeal to your average Joe. It certainly has in Korea.

#28
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QUOTE (Gillz @ Feb 16 2008, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway, here is my chart of "Will CGS Use It?"

Does it look good?
Yes - SWEET, put it in.
No - We don't want it.

Do People Play It?
Yes - Sweet, put it in.
No - Who cares, it looks good, right?

Are the rules simple?
Yes - Sweet, slap it in there!
No - Okay, well...

Can we dumb down the rules?
Yes - Okay, put it in!
No - Don't want it.

Is it an RTS?
Yes - Don't want it.
No - SWEET, does it run in 1080i?

Will our double-digit IQ demographic understand it?
Yes - Alright, throw a Mountian Dew ad in there too.
No - Don't want it.

Is it a 1v1 FPS?
Yes - Don't want it, too hard for our audience to understand
No - Sweet, wait, it looks good, right?

Is there a similar game to yours?
Yes - Okay, we might take it
No - Perfect!

Which game do people play more, yours or your competitions?
Ours - Good!
Theirs - Fuck it...

Will you pay us more then your competitions?
Yes - Throw it in!
No - Well, we might take it, we just have to make sure it looks good.


i keekled


#29
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I lol'ed.

It's great that our little (or not so little anymore) niche is growing, and becoming more accepted. But with all this i can just see the gaming industry becoming a total sellout (we are already pretty close).

And i really dont understand how WoW is going to be shown.
Like whats more boring than WATCHING somebody play WoW?!

#30
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QUOTE (Jarett @ Feb 16 2008, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Let me be blunt here - I think console shooters suck balls.


lol, fucking sig'd

still can't believe WoW is now considered a professional e-sport
Come at me bro

#31
Jarett

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QUOTE
I don't know if you mis-read something, or if the post on the site is wrong, but from what I can tell, there's only 4 games in CGS this year.


I saw just now that only four games are listed in the press release, even though five are shown in the games list on the main page - http://www.thecgs.com

They went and replaced the PGR3 image with Forza 2, but didn't bother removing WoW icon_smile.gif

#32
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QUOTE (Jarett @ Feb 16 2008, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The MLG 2008 (ESPN): Halo 3, Gears of War, and an unreleased Tom Clancy shooter from a franchise I'm half-convinced no one actually plays seriously except the Frag Dolls. The entire league this year is so far comprised of three Xbox 360 shooters. That's one genre on one console. Let me be blunt here - I think console shooters suck balls. Again, a personal preference, sure, but one that I happen to share with every human being I've ever met that first experienced FPS on a PC.


God fucking damn it I thought I was the only one who thought this. Who the fuck plays that shit? Brawl has to be added to MLG this year simply for diversity. z0mg a fighting game? On the Wii? OMGNOWAI!!

I wish that EVO was televised. I love watching fighting game matches. Melee, SFIII, SFII...you name it. However, the ratings (unfortunately) wouldn't be so great. It's a shame really.

I beat Jarett in Tetris. Once. Then he beat me four times straight. But still, I beat him once!

#33
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I have only watched a few e-sprts comps (no RTS ones) but this thread is getting me interested so i might go check it out

QUOTE (Shaun. @ Apr 28 2009, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
AAAAA+++++++++++++++ GREAT SERVICE AND GOOD PACKAGE. WOULD BANG AGAIN

#34
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Its a shame that many can't appreciate the talent it takes to play a StarCraft match. Or even understand it for that matter.

That's why those kind of tournaments are not displayed in my opinion. The public wants eye candy. Something mind numbing to watch.

Would you like to look at some of my wares?

 

http://www.twitch.tv/blanetrain

 


#35
Tree_

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It's good because your post even makes this easier to say. To an extent, it's obvious that a quite alot of people watch CGS and many of them dont have a clue about e-sports as a whole and the kind of games that tournaments such as these would usually feature. As well as having a constant viewer base, the companies also expect to pick up more viewers as time goes by. Now for all these people watching and all the newer viewers who wont know a thing about the games being played and there rules, how many times do you really think there going to want to explain it?

Gaming as a televised, "Main stream", thing is like what?... Maybe a year or two old. It's not that im against seeing toxjq vs av3k on TV, it just seems as if the smarter option is infact to ease the masses into this. So wouldent it seem a little more logical to use games with easier rule set's (Hell, everyone knows how Soccer is played) and playability, then confuse the shit out of people with a game like Starcraft or Quake3 which is clearly a little more complicated than say FIFA or Forza2, which are both simple to follow? Hell even given the chance to see games like these on the CGS, this is the exact reason I wouldent want to see them, because I know they would get so dumbed down it wouldent even be fun to compete in them anymore. And when it comes down to it lets face it, console shooters are the kind of dumbed down games that would be perfect to lead people into more complex titles like the Quakes and TF2's of the FPS world.

I wouldent worry too much anyway, in time I dont doubt that events such as ESWC and WCG will get there spot on peoples air waves, which we can all hope will still be using the kind of games they are today. I'd wait it out a little while, games that require skill arent exactally just going to up and leave us...

#36
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imma thinkin these TV shows, and their choice of games, are driven 100% by the publishers/distributors.

it is also clear that the TV studios fail to realise that fans will tune in to watch the gamers and games by them selves. gamers dont want to see smoke effects, 'fight' girls, crazy managers. i freakin' hate the over the top commentary. i heard embarrassment in fatal1ty's voice, because he knew the show sucked so hard.

good points in your post Tree_. they should put you in charge of the shows.


PPftw
BoL: this game only scrolls in one direction so we have to suck it up and keep moving
QUOTE (rick_2k @ Dec 22 2008, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
PP to me is a gift made by some talented guys and gals who like to do it and give us a great quality show for free.

QUOTE (Anthrax704 @ Apr 3 2009, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's out of 1337.

QUOTE (denwO @ Feb 26 2008, 10:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I once saw a guy on tour around my university wearing an uber micro hoodie, so I went to chat to him. He was a complete dick.

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There are 3 or 4 people in my school who wear purepwnage shirts.. Sadly, they are mostly retarded :(

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I'm not even sure what the answer to my question was lol I was there for 5 minutes to look at Dave and that's about it.

QUOTE (anatomy187 @ May 22 2008, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe it's because I live in <...> and everyone is braindead when it comes to games and computers so when I tell them I'm in a "Gamer Army" they think I'm a fucking genius.
QUOTE (Nestey @ Jun 4 2008, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
mmm attention.... yes...we needs it... we wants it precious.....

QUOTE (Jarett @ Aug 7 2009, 03:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's going to kick some serious fucking TV ass.

#37
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Hhahaha as I was 90% through reading it I was going to say "well if you like watching starcraft, you should know they're now just starting to broadcast starcraft games in english commentary as well as korean. And guess who's commentating... Tasteless!!!! The best starcraft commentator on the fucking planet!" Then I read the last paragraph

icon_wink.gif god I fucking love you.

You share like every view i have on video games...

#38
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I think that broadcasting games on TV are fine as long as the games are good (RTS/FPS) not WoW. Sorry to WoW players but I can't watch people doing quests for 5 minutes much less 1/2 hour. Also PLEASE don't broadcast the majority of Wii games, Super Smash Bros Brawl, maybe but not that irritating Wii sports game.

Jarret, your definitely entitled to your own opinion but in my view console shooters are fine. And as a proud owner of a 360 and a PC I can say that some shooters play better/are more fun/challenge (in my view) on 360. Then again some games imported to 360 are just attempts for company's to make more money, and are terrible on 360. Please don't insult 360 over some games, or comparing PC games to their 360 counterparts.

BTW: Nadlice is a serious aliment, infecting almost 690 000 people worldwide EVERY YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
A rolling stone wasn't built...... in a... day.

#39
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QUOTE (alethioS @ Feb 17 2008, 12:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd just like to make this point:

Obviously a vast majority of RTS titles are concerned only with build orders and macro. Find a game though that encapsulates that aspect, while also requiring micro, game sense and to some extent.. luck. I would argue that there is the occasional RTS out there that is as strategic as chess, as fast paced as Halo and requires all the skill of a professional athlete to play at a high level.

I hate to push this, makes me feel like some cheap advertiser... but make the effort to watch a few of tonights Starcraft games, I think you will agree with me that it could indeed appeal to your average Joe. It certainly has in Korea.


I totally agree with you. I love to watch Starcraft. Unfortunately, right now North American leagues obviously feel that people won't understand RTS enough to enjoy it.

They have a point too. I mean, we all know what's going on when we watch a game of Starcraft, but that's because we've all played it. The televised gaming scene is all about bringing in new viewers at this point, and they can more or less count having us gamers as viewers, so they're going for a more casual audience right now.

However, Korea bought into Starcraft in a huge way. I don't think we'll see that in NA for at least a few more years, but if we find a game that really captures the general public, the way SC did in Korea, we might just see a huge increase in interest in competitive gaming.


QUOTE (Anth0ny @ Feb 17 2008, 02:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
God fucking damn it I thought I was the only one who thought this. Who the fuck plays that shit? Brawl has to be added to MLG this year simply for diversity. z0mg a fighting game? On the Wii? OMGNOWAI!!

I wish that EVO was televised. I love watching fighting game matches. Melee, SFIII, SFII...you name it. However, the ratings (unfortunately) wouldn't be so great. It's a shame really.


Brawl or Melee will. There's a lot of concern floating around that Brawl will not be viable competitively (random tripping when you dash, no L-cancel, no wave dash) but it did just come out, and only in Japan. As more advanced techiniques are found it will become more interesting. Melee, however, is very well established, so I think MLG might do one more year of the older game.

I would watch EVO TV in a second! They do sell those DVDs, which are cool, but they're also a little pricey :/
-SOL

#40
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I really liked this 'blog', nice topic.

After watching the DoA4 video you linked it just hit me: wtf are the managers doing? 'You got this baby, you got this', if i were pro and someone was saying that over my shoulder, it wouldn't be long before i did NOT consider uppercutting them. They seem way too gimmicky and pointless.

Anyway... yeah, if they had CS:S televised over here, would be kind of epic.

Again, good article.

laugh.gif




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