2248 replies to this topic

[Dohregard]

Why even continue to entertain the idiots that are stupid enough to believe in religion, it's not real end of story. You shouldn't try and find a flaw in their story, they believe something for wich is no prove at all and they still believe in it, what does that tell you about their ability to reason?

they aren't idiots, and the reason I continue is because I like it.

Don't come into a Religious debate thread with a closed mind, you sound just like the people you hate.

[way2lazy2care]

Why even continue to entertain the idiots that are stupid enough to believe in religion, it's not real end of story. You shouldn't try and find a flaw in their story, they believe something for wich is no prove at all and they still believe in it, what does that tell you about their ability to reason?

It's not like your suddenly gonna say something and they will all of a sudden throw away their book that explains lightning.

Religion (Mass religion anyway) needs to go. It's far to dangerous for people to be saying "ooh it's just my view". Every day thousands of people die in Africa because the pope told them to just fuck away without condoms and thousands more get a death sentence everyday. Even now homosexuals are treated as 2nd class citizens because a book gives people the "right" to do so.

Christianity and Islam (even more) are oppresive in nature and should die out sooner then later. I don't care if people go and worship the sun just as long as people abandon mass religion. The sun never told anyone to beat their rebellious daughter into submission. The sun doesn't say that women that don't dress up from top to toe are asking to be raped. The sun doesn't want you to kill anyone because their not part of your sun club.

Fuck it im gonna worship the sun atleast he never dissapoints.

there are plenty of well known and excessively intelligent scientists that are religious. Just because people choose to believe in something higher than themselves does not mean they are idiots.

The Pope never told anyone to fuck away without condoms. The pope told them not to fuck randomly and sporadically (to continue using your verbiage). Homosexuals aren't treated as 2nd class citizens either. They are seen as human just like everyone else. The church just doesn't recognize the union between people of the same sex as marriage.

And Christianity is considerably more open this century (and improving) than many other religions.

If God exists outside of provable fact, how do you know he is a he?


Regardless of the humanizing characteristics humans have given their various deities, If the only things people have faith in are from stories told from people who have talked to him, correct? Than would having faith in God be having faith in a higher power, or the people who have told you that their is one?


One more thing back on the sentence you refused to answer, can you explain to me why God would have created things that didn't know he existed?


If God knew what was sin and what wasn't, why did he give us free will? Not only that, why would he create evil if he knew what evil would do?

1.) I was using He, as 'he' is most commonly associated with 'him'. I believe that 'he' is neither, and actually believe that 'he' falls more on the feminine side of the road as far as I believe.

2.) the answers to the rest of your questions are in one of two places. The Bible, or the Catholic Catechism. They are available pretty readily, and for the questions you just asked, they are pretty straight forward.

Now to answer, It's hard to explain to people that haven't experienced it, but my belief doesn't come from people telling me he's there (I'm going to continue using he, as it is simple). I have felt him throughout my life in various instances in different ways. Some people might interpret those instances differently, but as far as I am concerned they were God acting in my life. That is why I believe in it.

It's kind of a self propagating problem where you have to have faith before your faith is confirmed to you, and it is rarely confirmed otherwise. It's unfortunate, but I believe that that's the way it is. I won't knock anyone for not wanting to have to have faith in something before you are allowed to have proof that what you have faith in exists. It's natural. Likewise, I don't like being knocked for having faith in something that I have full confidence in despite being the only person to experience that proof.

Your last two questions have partially the same answer, and they're both answered in genesis. The short story is that he gave us free will to give us the choice to believe in him. He showed himself to us at creation, we broke his rules and pain, suffering, and other bad things were brought onto humans, and god stopped showing himself to us directly.

The long story is genesis. Sorry if you don't like reading that much.

[Dohregard]

and god stopped showing himself to us directly.

If that is true, than why did he show himself to people he felt "were following his will"? If god came down to Abraham and Moses and told them things directly, than doesn't that violate this fact? Couldn't than anyone who has been a devout christian say that god has spoken to them and create a new sect of christianity where they interpret the bible differently?

Also, here is a though about heaven and hell. If we are going to experience eternal bliss and eternal suffering, wouldn't there be a point where we become numb to that experience? Also, if we are dead, how will we experience these feelings if our senses are all physical?

I've done my fair share of research, and there are many holes in Christianity, in my opinion. I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, I'm just throwing questions out for you to field because I think anyone of solid faith should be able to answer them. (and I appreciate you doing so you have no idea how hard it is to get anyone to have a good discussion on Religion)

My belief is in the human race as a whole, which is more powerful than any God. It incorporates everyones everything and can't be broken down or segregated. One day, we'll be able to look back and laugh at such silly and trivial things as religion. It's those mental divides that are keeping us from achieving greatness. We're all nothing more than what we call ourselves, the divine spark is life and once we die, what made us so unique becomes once again apart of the earth and then those same basic building blocks will be used in something else's life We're the earth's senses as we can perceive beyond them. We have a brain that understands self, which is the most amazing and unique experience that any living thing can hope to achieve. But not only that, we have the ability to shape the world around us, making us far beyond the other self aware animals on the planet. There is nothing divine about it, which is what makes it so beautiful. Our memories will die with us, but what's stopping us from making as many as we can fit into our brain? Death is often considered a new beginning, and it is, but we won't be around to experience it, but what we create with what we left behind will carry on in our stead. Even if we inadvertently wipe out all life on the planet (hopefully not), the earth will still be around long after life has died. But even then, once the sun starts to die it will envelope the earth and our planet won't be here, and any trace of us as a planet will be no more, other than in distant galaxies where the light refracted from our atmosphere will still be shot into space for eternity. Maybe that's the afterlife, a wave of photons being shot into the endless black abyss. So, life is nothing more than a systematic occurrence caused by the right mixture of the right chemicals at the right time. So if you think of those possibilities, the fact we are conscious beings makes us an even rarer occurrence than anything imaginable, which is such an exhilarating thought. We've been given a chance to experience to universe as the cold unforgiving place that it is, and with such enormity that we couldn't possibly experience all that it holds in a single lifetime. Our existence is the most fragile thing in the universe. That's the beautiful of it in my opinion.

Edited by Dohregard, 17 November 2009 - 06:58 AM.

[DethFanatic]

[Dohregard]

teared up loling

[way2lazy2care]

If that is true, than why did he show himself to people he felt "were following his will"? If god came down to Abraham and Moses and told them things directly, than doesn't that violate this fact? Couldn't than anyone who has been a devout christian say that god has spoken to them and create a new sect of christianity where they interpret the bible differently?

I don't know... I'm not God. Much like I couldn't tell you why people eat vegemite.
Yes, and lots of people have.

Like I said before, All your answers are for the most part in genesis. They're also gone over in much less symbolic terms in the catholic catechism. You're going to take the minutia of a 3 sentence summary of a 50 chapter book and try and debate it? That's just silly.

Also, here is a though about heaven and hell. If we are going to experience eternal bliss and eternal suffering, wouldn't there be a point where we become numb to that experience? Also, if we are dead, how will we experience these feelings if our senses are all physical?

I've done my fair share of research, and there are many holes in Christianity, in my opinion. I'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, I'm just throwing questions out for you to field because I think anyone of solid faith should be able to answer them. (and I appreciate you doing so you have no idea how hard it is to get anyone to have a good discussion on Religion)

I never said there weren't holes in christianity. Once a person has enough evidence to prove their belief in God most of the answers to those holes just follow from that.

using your questions as an example. From my previous experience I have enough evidence for myself to justify my belief in God. Given that my belief in an all powerful being is already solidified through other evidence, I haven't really felt the need to question how that being would cause me pain in the afterlife.

[Dohregard]

That's what I'm confused about, if you say that there isn't anything but faith / belief in God that we as humans can understand / comprehend, how is there any evidence he exists?

I'm curious because you keep stating "when your faith is solidified", and for that to happen there has to be the "solid evidence" you're talking about.

[way2lazy2care]

That's what I'm confused about, if you say that there isn't anything but faith / belief in God that we as humans can understand / comprehend, how is there any evidence he exists?

I'm curious because you keep stating "when your faith is solidified", and for that to happen there has to be the "solid evidence" you're talking about.

Now to answer, It's hard to explain to people that haven't experienced it, but my belief doesn't come from people telling me he's there (I'm going to continue using he, as it is simple). I have felt him throughout my life in various instances in different ways. Some people might interpret those instances differently, but as far as I am concerned they were God acting in my life. That is why I believe in it.

It's kind of a self propagating problem where you have to have faith before your faith is confirmed to you, and it is rarely confirmed otherwise. It's unfortunate, but I believe that that's the way it is. I won't knock anyone for not wanting to have to have faith in something before you are allowed to have proof that what you have faith in exists. It's natural. Likewise, I don't like being knocked for having faith in something that I have full confidence in despite being the only person to experience that proof.

[Dohregard]

abraham and moses both pre-date christ so no, they do not violate your "fact."

so Abraham and Moses pre-date Adam and Eve?

also, it is a flawed argument to say religion is wrong because a mere human doesn't have every answer. if you are anti religion, do YOU to have all the answers?

First of all, I'm not anti religious. If you have a solid belief in something than more power to you. My problem is with the people who won't or can't understand any other point of view on the subject but their own. I was raised Christian, then left faith all together, then came back to Christianity only to become sick of what the church was doing (at least the one I was attending) then experimented with eastern and metaphysical philosophies before finally settling on Materialism (Atheism). I never said I had all the answers (infact I blatantly said its impossible for any one person to do that), but I don't believe throwing your faith into something that has all the answers is ever the right thing. Try reading what I say are "my beliefs" and you may have picked up on that.

Edited by Dohregard, 17 November 2009 - 04:57 PM.

[zalzaron]

they aren't idiots, and the reason I continue is because I like it.

Don't come into a Religious debate thread with a closed mind, you sound just like the people you hate.

It's not a closed mind. As i (rather clearly) stated i don't mind religion. What i mind is that mass religion however is never without political aim. It aims to enforce it's views on those that do not. I have no problem with people that want to fill part of their life with spiritual activity if they desire that, but every believer in mass religions like Christianity and Islam supports it's views, views wich i find out-dated (who knew 2000 year old books didn't age well) and that i believe should be thrown out of the window as soon as possible. Having a reasonable debate with someone about gay marriage is fine, but how can one refute another's view when that person will always come back to "God told me".

The answer is you can't. You can't debate a religious person on that and therefore such a mentality should dissapear and that only happens by the breakdown of mass religions. If people cannot debate their points on reason and logic then they have no place in the public realm, yet even today homosexuals are not allowed to marry because "God told them". Being allowed to get married is a human right, so denying people that right is in my views treating them as 2nd class citizens. How else would you call it when told that a certain group doesn't get the same rights as the rest.

there are plenty of well known and excessively intelligent scientists that are religious. Just because people choose to believe in something higher than themselves does not mean they are idiots.

My point was regarding the debate on the subjects that these mass religions push forward on the agenda. Im sure there are alot of smart people that take comfort in religion.

The Pope never told anyone to fuck away without condoms. The pope told them not to fuck randomly and sporadically (to continue using your verbiage). Homosexuals aren't treated as 2nd class citizens either. They are seen as human just like everyone else. The church just doesn't recognize the union between people of the same sex as marriage.

He lied about how condoms don't work, deluding millions of Africans that hang on his every word and take what he says as the truth no matter what. Christianity plays a much bigger life in Africa then in the west and when the pope tells them condoms don't work then that's it, end of story condoms don't work so don't use them. That comment alone can perhaps have added thousands of infected that will die because of it.

And Christianity is considerably more open this century (and improving) than many other religions.

Christianity is indeed a far lesser problem then Islam, but i think i commented on that in my post aswell. Islam is the same problem christianity presents (a danger to individual freedom) but then tenfold.

[way2lazy2care]

It's not a closed mind. As i (rather clearly) stated i don't mind religion. What i mind is that mass religion however is never without political aim. It aims to enforce it's views on those that do not. I have no problem with people that want to fill part of their life with spiritual activity if they desire that, but every believer in mass religions like Christianity and Islam supports it's views, views wich i find out-dated (who knew 2000 year old books didn't age well) and that i believe should be thrown out of the window as soon as possible. Having a reasonable debate with someone about gay marriage is fine, but how can one refute another's view when that person will always come back to "God told me".

by 2000 year old book do you mean the bible? Even if christians weren't part of a mass religion, the bible would still be an incredibly important book to their faith.

He lied about how condoms don't work, deluding millions of Africans that hang on his every word and take what he says as the truth no matter what. Christianity plays a much bigger life in Africa then in the west and when the pope tells them condoms don't work then that's it, end of story condoms don't work so don't use them. That comment alone can perhaps have added thousands of infected that will die because of it.

http://www.queerty.c...right-20090330/
do you mean this? Because what he said was backed by a scientific study. And I'm sure everyone in Africa really hangs on the Pope's every word.

Christianity is indeed a far lesser problem then Islam, but i think i commented on that in my post aswell. Islam is the same problem christianity presents (a danger to individual freedom) but then tenfold.

I have been a catholic my whole life. Probably one of the two most structured types of christianity. Never have I felt my individual freedoms were threatened.

Every one of your posts wreaks of a great misunderstanding of the religion.

[zalzaron]

by 2000 year old book do you mean the bible? Even if christians weren't part of a mass religion, the bible would still be an incredibly important book to their faith.

But would you consider a 2000 year old book a good foundation to run a modern country? Ofcourse not you would agree that it's utterly ridiculous. Yet still people find their freedoms removed because a 2000 year old book says so, and the book remains important because people that hold it dear are convinced a god is speaking to them to carry it out.

And whilst alot of the messages in the bible are fine, alot of them are abused and twisted in this day and age. We all know the bible says you should kill homosexuals but religious folk pick and choose. However they also pick and choose that a gay couple is inferior to a heterosexual couple. The bible folk use their massive voter block to push their personal beliefs onto those that do not share it.

Would you like it when you had to adapt parts of a bhudist lifestyle? Or how would you like it when you had to adapt to parts of an Islamic lifestyle? Now assuming you posses atleast an ounce of empathy, could you atleast understand the frustration that alot of people in this world have when they are told they can't get married because a god they don't believe in says so?

http://www.queerty.c...right-20090330/
do you mean this? Because what he said was backed by a scientific study. And I'm sure everyone in Africa really hangs on the Pope's every word.

You are quik to claim that i don't understand religion, yet you prove in the same sentence that you hold no understanding of christianity in Africa. Yes alot of people in fact DO hang on the pope's every single word.

I have been a catholic my whole life. Probably one of the two most structured types of christianity. Never have I felt my individual freedoms were threatened.

Every one of your posts wreaks of a great misunderstanding of the religion.

It's not your freedom, it's the freedom of people that don't believe in your way of life, or your view of the world but must still follow it against their will.

[way2lazy2care]

But would you consider a 2000 year old book a good foundation to run a modern country? Ofcourse not you would agree that it's utterly ridiculous. Yet still people find their freedoms removed because a 2000 year old book says so, and the book remains important because people that hold it dear are convinced a god is speaking to them to carry it out.

Which modern country is run by the bible?

And whilst alot of the messages in the bible are fine, alot of them are abused and twisted in this day and age. We all know the bible says you should kill homosexuals but religious folk pick and choose. However they also pick and choose that a gay couple is inferior to a heterosexual couple. The bible folk use their massive voter block to push their personal beliefs onto those that do not share it.

The bible says you should NEVER KILL.

Would you like it when you had to adapt parts of a bhudist lifestyle? Or how would you like it when you had to adapt to parts of an Islamic lifestyle? Now assuming you posses atleast an ounce of empathy, could you atleast understand the frustration that alot of people in this world have when they are told they can't get married because a god they don't believe in says so?

The only reason that christianity seems to be forced on to people in the US, noting that it isn't at all, is because the majority of people in the US are christian. It's the government's role to form a legal system that best represents the beliefs of it's citizens.

You are quik to claim that i don't understand religion, yet you prove in the same sentence that you hold no understanding of christianity in Africa. Yes alot of people in fact DO hang on the pope's every single word.

says the person who says the bible tells people to kill people.

and the Pope tells people not to have sex outside of marriage or without the intent to have a child. Apparently they aren't hanging on his every word if Aids is spreading.

It's not your freedom, it's the freedom of people that don't believe in your way of life, or your view of the world but must still follow it against their will.

who? who follows it against their will? I'm guessing they are idiots as nobody is forcing it on anyone.

[Riddle]

Which modern country is run by the bible?

Not saying the bible in particular. But being the president of USA means being a religious person in general. Massive amounts of votes come from whether u r a christian or not.

The bible says you should NEVER KILL.

Im pretty sure u have read the old testament. You arent going to deny how much killing there is in it and all those bullshit rules about stoning your neighbours wife to death if she had sex out of wedlock etc etc. What about the crusades? The last time I checked, religion was the massive reason to go on a man slaughter rampage. Yeh, the old testament is irrevelant to the conservative christian and the crusades dont happen in this day and age (Iraq, afghan war anyone?).
btw, Did God tell us not to follow the old testament ?

The only reason that christianity seems to be forced on to people in the US, noting that it isn't at all, is because the majority of people in the US are christian. It's the government's role to form a legal system that best represents the beliefs of it's citizens.

And this is good because?

and the Pope tells people not to have sex outside of marriage or without the intent to have a child. Apparently they aren't hanging on his every word if Aids is spreading.

So instead of promoting the usage of one of the most important technology ever invented by mankind, the pope preaches you not to listen to your natural inclination? On second thoughts, this might be a good thing because the misinformed religious people die first.

who? who follows it against their will? I'm guessing they are idiots as nobody is forcing it on anyone.

There have been countless of times ive been asked, so why arent you a christian. To which i reply i do not believe in blind faith. I dont know why but that answer usually makes religious people upset and give me the cold shoulder like ive offended them or something. I laugh inside whenever I attend christian functions and how everyone thinks God will rescue them from some sort of trouble they are facing. Not to mention, I was blatantly told that I will be going to hell because I did not believe in Jesus. And after a few sessions, I was told to either convert and become a christian or not show up anymore. (partly because I was being a nuisance to their gathering) The way some people act and behave at such gatherings just shows how religion can brainwash people. But then again, this is acceptable behaviour and im classified as the wierd one.

Edited by Riddle, 18 November 2009 - 03:11 PM.

[zalzaron]

Which modern country is run by the bible?

No modern country is fully run by the bible, lucky for me i never said anything of the kind. I said a 2000 year old book is a bad guide for leading a country wich was in reference to several things today wich we find in goverment that are there for the religious folk, like banning gay marriage etc.

And if you think you can become president of the USA in this day whilst offending the church in any way then your just plain crazy. The christian voting block is simply so big that one can't go around it and thus it will continue to effect the national agenda of the USA and force parts of a lifestyle THOSE people choose on people that want nothing to do with it.

The bible says you should NEVER KILL.

The bible clearly at times states it's oke to kill people. Whilst you are right it also claims that you shouldn't kill people. Perhaps the writers didn't get their story straight or maybe the bible doesn't count homosexuals as human beings, but fact is it does state at times it's A-oke to kill a person (gays/adulterers).

The bible also mostly speaks about helping the poor but recently the church in New York threatend to stop providing their social services (like shelters and food for free kitchens) if they pass gay marriage. All mass religion is political, when you don't see that your deluding yourself just as much as telling yourself there is a magic man that will take you away from this ooh soo horrid planet.

The only reason that christianity seems to be forced on to people in the US, noting that it isn't at all, is because the majority of people in the US are christian. It's the government's role to form a legal system that best represents the beliefs of it's citizens.

So you agree that a goverment should let itself be led by nonsense. You actually believe that if there is no shred of evidence for something, that it doesn't matter and that the real world (aka goverments) should still cater to it's whims? There is no proof of a god, and if you want to believe in a god that is fine, but the whole problem is that it doesn't stay there.

If religion was confined to home and church then there would be no issue, you could go about your day. The problem is that all mass religion is political and thus it seeks to shape the world around it. It sends out a message of "Wether you believe in our way or not doesn't matter, your gonna live it anyway".

says the person who says the bible tells people to kill people.

You should read the bible if you miss obvious things like it telling you it's fine to kill people, just cause another line says don't do it doesn't negate the first line. You can also sell your daughter into slavery and other cool things like that but once again for the church to survive it had to adapt to a bit of a more modern approach but it still kept parts like it's anti-gay agenda.

and the Pope tells people not to have sex outside of marriage or without the intent to have a child. Apparently they aren't hanging on his every word if Aids is spreading.

People still have urges you know. As much as you might believe in a god it doesn't stop teenagers from feeling the urge to go and have sex. It's a natural feeling far more powerfull then any indoctrination, and god knows the church has tried. However if you mix that urge to have sex with a figure of great importance saying "don't use a condom they don't work" it helps in the spread of aids cause that might just be a lesson the kids DO hang on to.

who? who follows it against their will? I'm guessing they are idiots as nobody is forcing it on anyone.

Nobody is forcing homosexuals to remain unmarried? I would disagree. Several states of the USA force homosexuals to remain unmarried.

Once again religion is fine if it's YOUR belief but mass religion forms powerfull voting blocks that simply cannot be ignored and thus spread YOUR chosen lifestyle to the lives of others. And i don't want to see my or anyone else's life be effected by something wich is based on nothing else but the idiotic reasoning of "Prove that im wrong".

That's why i don't mind personal religions or just a general vague spiritual belief. While i still think it's self deception atleast it's a kind of self deception that doesn't need to invade other people's personal lives.

[TheBase]

The bible says you should NEVER KILL.

lol...

[way2lazy2care]

Not saying the bible in particular. But being the president of USA means being a religious person in general. Massive amounts of votes come from whether u r a christian or not.

That's a legal problem, not a religious problem. Don't get a beef with christianity because the legal system fucks you in the ass.

Im pretty sure u have read the old testament. You arent going to deny how much killing there is in it and all those bullshit rules about stoning your neighbours wife to death if she had sex out of wedlock etc etc. What about the crusades? The last time I checked, religion was the massive reason to go on a man slaughter rampage. Yeh, the old testament is irrevelant to the conservative christian and the crusades dont happen in this day and age (Iraq, afghan war anyone?).
btw, Did God tell us not to follow the old testament ?

yes. Read the new testament.

And this is good because?

again. It's a legal issue. It's the government's job to uphold the general moral beliefs of it's citizens. If you don't like it, run for office or leave. It's still no reason to be upset with christianity. It's like yelling at the bumper of the car that just hit you because it hit you, not the driver.

So instead of promoting the usage of one of the most important technology ever invented by mankind, the pope preaches you not to listen to your natural inclination? On second thoughts, this might be a good thing because the misinformed religious people die first.

Yea... it's easy to sound right when you word it horribly. How about this.

So instead of fucking everything that moves when only occasionally using a condom (scientific study shows that this is the reason condoms aren't as effective in africa as in other places), the pope preaches that you use your dick responsibly and with a significant other.

There have been countless of times ive been asked, so why arent you a christian. To which i reply i do not believe in blind faith. I dont know why but that answer usually makes religious people upset and give me the cold shoulder like ive offended them or something. I laugh inside whenever I attend christian functions and how everyone thinks God will rescue them from some sort of trouble they are facing. Not to mention, I was blatantly told that I will be going to hell because I did not believe in Jesus. And after a few sessions, I was told to either convert and become a christian or not show up anymore. (partly because I was being a nuisance to their gathering) The way some people act and behave at such gatherings just shows how religion can brainwash people. But then again, this is acceptable behaviour and im classified as the wierd one.

Yea... and there's countless times in the past 2 pages of this thread where I've had my faith questioned or flat out insulted. If you want tolerance be tolerant.

I'm also confused why you'd go to "christian functions" and not expect people to ask if you are christian or talk about christianity.

[zalzaron]

Yea... and there's countless times in the past 2 pages of this thread where I've had my faith questioned or flat out insulted. If you want tolerance be tolerant.

What nonesense is this? Be tolerant?

If im tolerant of religion that gives it an air of equality, and air of it being worthy of considered a valid thought. You don't have to be tolerant of ridiculous views just cause they are views. You might have an opinion or a view, well good for you that doesn't instantly mean it's even good enough to be tolerated.

Should i tolerate a racists that yells we have to kill all black people just cause it's a view? No ofcourse not. Not all views are worthy of being tolerated and religion is right up there with the rest of it. It's a viewpoint wich has not a single shred of evidence supporting it and i hold it in equal regards to fairy tales, fun to listen to and read about, but no place in the real world.

[TheShadowNinja]

What nonesense is this? Be tolerant?

If im tolerant of religion that gives it an air of equality, and air of it being worthy of considered a valid thought. You don't have to be tolerant of ridiculous views just cause they are views. You might have an opinion or a view, well good for you that doesn't instantly mean it's even good enough to be tolerated.

Should i tolerate a racists that yells we have to kill all black people just cause it's a view? No ofcourse not. Not all views are worthy of being tolerated and religion is right up there with the rest of it. It's a viewpoint wich has not a single shred of evidence supporting it and i hold it in equal regards to fairy tales, fun to listen to and read about, but no place in the real world.

And this is exactly why any person who's even remotely religious hates most atheists.

Edited by TheShadowNinja, 20 November 2009 - 04:59 PM.