2248 replies to this topic

[dvide]

I would NOT enjoy raping that kid in any fucking way. I'd hate it, and probly myself, for a long time. I don't know if I'd actually do it, to be honest.
That abraham thing, God asked him to kill his kid as a test. he didn't actually have Abraham kill him, He was just making sure Abraham would do it. The ultimate test of faith.

It doesn't matter if God intervened at the last minute. The idea is that Abraham was willing to kill his own child, and that this was a moral thing just because God asked it of him.

And you're misinterpreting my question. If you wanted to rape a child, you WOULD do it. People only do things that they want to do.

No I wouldn't. IF I wanted to I would not violate the right to liberty of somebody else as a means to an end. If I want sex I don't just go out raping people. Sorry to disappoint you.

For instance, if someone held a gun to your head while you were at a cash register and told you to empty all the money into a bag, you'd do it. You would have negative thoughts about giving the money away, but you would do it. Because you wanted to. Because you wanted to keep living. Just like people say they don't want to do their work, but they do it anyways. They actually do want to go to work, because they want that money. They just don't have their entire conscious committed to going to work. There's other things they'd like to do.

so, if you wanted to rape a child, would you?

If somebody held a gun to me head then it is not through my 'want' to do it, it is through threat of force. I don't want to give a thief any money.

But my point still stands.

[Smiley451]

Not implying you're a bad person. And I'm sure Abraham was wondering what the fuck God was thinking and if he had killed his son, there's a good chance he would've stopped believing in God and would've been shameful because he'd done such a terrible thing. As would any person that did something terrible because they thought God asked them to. No where in the New Testament (which contains the laws and the covenant we follow) does it say God will ask you to do despicable things. On the contrary, God only speaks of good will, kindness, caring, and all that good stuff.
But you don't care about that, do you? You just want something to blame the world's problems on, and you chose religion. So you ignore all the good things that religion offers and convince yourself and other people that religion is terrible.
You're going to say that's not what you think. But that really does seem like what you think. That's what you've been implying with every single post on this thread.

[dvide]

Not implying you're a bad person. And I'm sure Abraham was wondering what the fuck God was thinking and if he had killed his son, there's a good chance he would've stopped believing in God and would've been shameful because he'd done such a terrible thing. As would any person that did something terrible because they thought God asked them to. No where in the New Testament (which contains the laws and the covenant we follow) does it say God will ask you to do despicable things. On the contrary, God only speaks of good will, kindness, caring, and all that good stuff.
But you don't care about that, do you? You just want something to blame the world's problems on, and you chose religion. So you ignore all the good things that religion offers and convince yourself and other people that religion is terrible.
You're going to say that's not what you think. But that really does seem like what you think. That's what you've been implying with every single post on this thread.

Nah, I'm saying religion is Dumbo's magic feather that falsely claims it is the only path to morality when it is not justified in this. 'good will, kindness, caring, and all that good stuff' cannot be solely attributed to God. Not just the Christian God but any God. All religions claim the others are not true, only they have the one true divine law.

Can you not see that for the same reason you do not believe in Islam I do not believe in Christianity. You don't have any reason to believe it, I just go one God further. And ultimately this is a topic that interests me. I don't talk about it because I am trying to find blame for anything, I am just genuinely interested in the topic. More generally I am interested in scepticism, this just stems from it.

Unlike religious people (generalisation, but a lot of) I am not a complete cynic. I do not believe humans are inherently evil (quite the contrary), and that God is the only path to salvation. People want to be good, it's in their nature, which is why some latch onto religion in the first place. Because it claims only through the particular religion can you achieve goodness. I think this is a dangerous philosophy. I saw a tv programme recently on youtube called 'Make me a muslim'. It followed 4 western people for two weeks, who were supposed to try out the muslim lifestyle under the guide of certain imams etc.

Most people hated the experience, but one person in particular got something of value out of it. He was a regular party animal and would go out and drink heavily almost every night. Because Islam prohibits drinking, during the two weeks he did not drink at all. He found that by not drinking and going out partying every night, he actually enjoyed his two weeks more than his superficial party life, and was amazed at how much money he saved. So that's good I suppose. The problem is he went on to falsely attribute this lifestyle to only Islam, and so became a practicing muslim with everything else that goes with it. Ah ah, hook line and sinker.

How is not drinking attributable only to Islam? I don't drink either. I think Islam in this case acted as Dumbo's magical feather, and now he is sucked into an attitude of magical thinking. You don't have to become a muslim right? Just don't go out every night and frickin' drink so damn much. I hope this makes sense, because you're not a muslim you can agree that the philosophy of 'not drinking' is not attributable to Allah's law or Mohammed, etc. But of course, if I picked an example that involved Christianity you would be eager to jump in and attribute it to God. It's confirmation bias at work.

Just wondering, what was your reasoning for asking me if I would rape a child if I wanted? I assume you had a point to make?

[Smiley451]

The goal of Christianity is to obey Jesus' teachings and to live your life the way He did. We try to live for everything God says, and do everything He tells us to do.
However, take that central "command center" if you will, and what do you have? A being with a great amount of power and potential. That person can do whatever they want because of free will. I've brought this up before, but my basic point is that an atheist decides what they live for and what they deem is right. I'm not going to say that atheists rape children. But what I'm saying is that while I would do and live for what God says, and atheist would do and live for their own pleasure.
My point being, I would do what God says, but an atheist would do what they feel like.

Raping a child is an exaggeration, of course. But exaggerations are a good way to get a point across.

[dvide]

But what I'm saying is that while I would do and live for what God says, and atheist would do and live for their own pleasure.

I live for my own pleasure, yes, but only where it does not overlap with the use of force or fraud to take the life, liberty or property of another. I respect the rights of others. I would not use any and all means to achieve my end of pleasure. And I would not want to.

It makes sense that human beings would want to be good in general, as we are all benifiting from altruism and cooperation and mutual efforts and consenting trade. We are a social animal, through memes or genes (probably both).

[TheBase]

The goal of Christianity is to obey Jesus' teachings and to live your life the way He did. We try to live for everything God says, and do everything He tells us to do.
However, take that central "command center" if you will, and what do you have? A being with a great amount of power and potential. That person can do whatever they want because of free will. I've brought this up before, but my basic point is that an atheist decides what they live for and what they deem is right. I'm not going to say that atheists rape children. But what I'm saying is that while I would do and live for what God says, and atheist would do and live for their own pleasure.
My point being, I would do what God says, but an atheist would do what they feel like.

Raping a child is an exaggeration, of course. But exaggerations are a good way to get a point across.

This shit is so wrong on so many levels...

Firstly, just how the fuck do you know what god wants? Does he say shit to you? It's unbelievable how religious people think that humans lack any integrity, principles, and morals without religion. Humans are born with certain instincts. Our guilt that comes from "bad" deeds don't come from religion. We feel that guilt because it is natural for us to feel guilt. We don't just murder, steal, ect. because our human instincts tell us not to do those things. Are you telling me that people found murder acceptable until some book was written in 600 A.D.?

And you would rape someone because someone told you to do it? Talk about some loose fucking morals.

Why Christianity? In your defense, you said that because "it's better than the scientific method because while the method was only around several hundred years, Christianity existed for 2000". With that logic, I could easily say "Hinduism and Judaism is better than Christianity because they are hundreds of years older than Christianity". You know what? Fuck it. Shamanism or any type of spirituality similar to Shamanism is the truest and best because it's been with us since the beginning of Homo Sapiens.

If Atheists only did what they wanted to do, why has the secular world held up so well? Why don't we live in anarchy looting and burning villages like vikings? You might as well be saying "people without religion have less integrity and more immoral than religious people".

But seriously. Why do you believe in a God? And why is Jesus your prophet, the son of God? Wait, if he's the son of God, is he a god or just an over-hyped David Blaine? And where the fuck does the holy spirit fit in with all of this? If you're going to say "because the bible says so", then fuck you. The Quraan says there is only one god, Allah, and Muhamid is his prophet. Which one is right? I still choose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster. Why? Because the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster says so. Oh, and the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[psilodump]

lol @ religion thread turning into a convo about fucking kids

this is *NOT* the quality of post that we wan't here. ~\/íƦù§52~

[Dohregard]

But what I'm saying is that while I would do and live for what God says, and atheist would do and live for their own pleasure.
My point being, I would do what God says, but an atheist would do what they feel like.

That goes back to our conversation before. That is total bias against people without faith. I know plenty of charitable people who are atheist. Any Atheist who is a parent isn't "living for their own pleasure" they are living for their kids at that point.

I really don't understand why anyone wouldn't be happy with their life because God told them to, but if that is the only way to "live charitably" than I guess I'm a horrible person.

[Smiley451]

This shit is so wrong on so many levels...

Firstly, just how the fuck do you know what god wants? Does he say shit to you? It's unbelievable how religious people think that humans lack any integrity, principles, and morals without religion. Humans are born with certain instincts. Our guilt that comes from "bad" deeds don't come from religion. We feel that guilt because it is natural for us to feel guilt. We don't just murder, steal, ect. because our human instincts tell us not to do those things. Are you telling me that people found murder acceptable until some book was written in 600 A.D.?

And you would rape someone because someone told you to do it? Talk about some loose fucking morals.

Why Christianity? In your defense, you said that because "it's better than the scientific method because while the method was only around several hundred years, Christianity existed for 2000". With that logic, I could easily say "Hinduism and Judaism is better than Christianity because they are hundreds of years older than Christianity". You know what? Fuck it. Shamanism or any type of spirituality similar to Shamanism is the truest and best because it's been with us since the beginning of Homo Sapiens.

If Atheists only did what they wanted to do, why has the secular world held up so well? Why don't we live in anarchy looting and burning villages like vikings? You might as well be saying "people without religion have less integrity and more immoral than religious people".

But seriously. Why do you believe in a God? And why is Jesus your prophet, the son of God? Wait, if he's the son of God, is he a god or just an over-hyped David Blaine? And where the fuck does the holy spirit fit in with all of this? If you're going to say "because the bible says so", then fuck you. The Quraan says there is only one god, Allah, and Muhamid is his prophet. Which one is right? I still choose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti monster. Why? Because the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster says so. Oh, and the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Is it your time of the month or something? Cuz u sound pretty pissed off without being provoked.

Why would I believe in a God?
I believed in God because I was raised that way. However, as I've gone through my life, it's continually made sense and held up. The teachings of Christianity are undeniably useful and very important for anyone. If you disagree, then you haven't done your homework. Simply put, the idea of God and the things the bible talks about just make sense to me.

Why wouldn't I believe in God? That's also a good question.
And why don't you?

[Smiley451]

I live for my own pleasure, yes, but only where it does not overlap with the use of force or fraud to take the life, liberty or property of another. I respect the rights of others. I would not use any and all means to achieve my end of pleasure. And I would not want to.

It makes sense that human beings would want to be good in general, as we are all benifiting from altruism and cooperation and mutual efforts and consenting trade. We are a social animal, through memes or genes (probably both).

If God is real, than do you think that humans know what's best, or Him? An atheist would make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, and of their own mind. Christians make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, their own mind, and of God. We consult the bible for these things, and you can't deny the wisdom that's in that book. Even if it was just made by men, then it was obviously written by very wise and intelligent men, because its teachings have lasted for so long and have remained relavent throughout its existence.

[psilodump]

if you felt inclined to rape a child, would you?

Ask your local pastor FFS.

wan't

WTF?

Why would I believe in a God?
I believed in God because I was raised that way. However, as I've gone through my life, it's continually made sense and held up. The teachings of Christianity are undeniably useful and very important for anyone. If you disagree, then you haven't done your homework. Simply put, the idea of God and the things the bible talks about just make sense to me.

I'm guessing you havent had much life experience.

FWIW knowing a TV set as a blinkeredass and a pair of curtains as some tardsheep would also make sense to you if you'd been brought up by parents with a strong incentive to not tell you otherwise (Hint: Both situations involve no objective truth). Children believe what older people tell them. Why do you think an overwhelming majority of religious kids end up having the EXACT same deluded beliefs as their parents? It's all about tradition, which will bring me to my next reply (lol, tardsheep). Way to not do your homework, buddy.

HTH

This is more like it! And lol oops @ extra apostraphe ~\/íƦù§52~

[dvide]

If God is real, than do you think that humans know what's best, or Him? An atheist would make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, and of their own mind. Christians make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, their own mind, and of God.

If God is fictional, than do you think that humans know what's best, or Him? An atheist would make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, and of their own mind. Christians make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, their own mind, and of a fictional character.

[Extracheez]

Is it your time of the month or something? Cuz u sound pretty pissed off without being provoked.

Why would I believe in a God?
I believed in God because I was raised that way. However, as I've gone through my life, it's continually made sense and held up. The teachings of Christianity are undeniably useful and very important for anyone. If you disagree, then you haven't done your homework. Simply put, the idea of God and the things the bible talks about just make sense to me.

Why wouldn't I believe in God? That's also a good question.
And why don't you?

I was raised a catholic, I was a devout catholic for about 15 years of my life. I was never forced to go to church, I went on my own accord. I never sat in church thinking about how boring it was like my still catholic friends do, I listened to sermons to improve my life. I can agree that Christian teachings for probably about 75% are reasonably applicable to daily life... but the more society has changed the more I saw we were taking the literal meanings of the bible out of context to change them in order to fit into todays society... so basically we were deciding which morals and values we took from the bible... this seemed really odd to me. The way I describe the teachings of the bible is amateur psychology... its extremely general and vague set of rules to live your life and because of it, it persecutes a minority. If people used real psychology and sociology to guide how they lived, there would be no need for the persecution caused by irrelevant dogma.

For example, do you see dogs, cats or monkeys ostracizing their peers because of homosexuality? With our knowledge of biology and sociobiology and the highly civilized nature of how we live, there is no reason to persecute homosexuals. However to this day we have religion spreading ignorance, hate and lies on the subject. If everyone in the world was well educated and open minded, having no one in their life to corrupt their moral values with set dogma, homosexuals would not be tolerated or accepted... they would be equals.

If God is real, than do you think that humans know what's best, or Him? An atheist would make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, and of their own mind. Christians make big decisions based on the opinions of their friends, their own mind, and of God. We consult the bible for these things, and you can't deny the wisdom that's in that book. Even if it was just made by men, then it was obviously written by very wise and intelligent men, because its teachings have lasted for so long and have remained relavent throughout its existence.

I can deny the wisdom of the bible. I have one question for you, have you actually read it? Have you studied it for class? The thing is full of genocide, bigotry and hatred. Its full of contradictions and loop holes based on flawed logic.

For example. If barrack obama said he wants all Americans(I'm assuming your American, if your not then replace barrack obama with your government leader) to suit up for war and commit genocide on the Muslims, because he believes they are filth and scum and need to be eradicated from the earth... would you suit up and follow out your task? Or would you think for yourself and say "no this is wrong, these people are human beings just like me and deserve equal rights" would you protest and makes sure a madman like this was never in power again?

Now if God and Jesus appeared to the human race and said that Christians are the only true faith and all other faiths must be purged from the earth because they were only put there by the devil to test your faith, what would you do? This is your God your omnipresent and omnipotent creator who you must always have faith in commanding you to burn and suffer innocent human beings... can you honestly say you would think for yourself? After all if whatever God says is truthful and right, who would you be to disagree with him?

Many horrible wars and deeds have been done based on the latter situation... if you disagree, open up and read the wisdom of your bible.

[Smiley451]

yes, the bible is filled with genocides. That's what a few books of the bible are about. (Old Testament, of course). Which is a different covenant. Yeah, i know you're all going to say something like
"So you just take parts of the bible that fit your society and what YOU think is right and use it as an excuse for your bigotry."
Nope

The Old and New Testaments are about different covenants. Christianity is founded on the New Covenant, the one with Jesus, the one that involves us living the way Jesus did. We follow the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. However, we know there's a lot of wisdom to be had by the Old Testament.
People, today, who go and kill and say that's what their god told them have mental problems. I don't think that God actually speaks to people like he did in the Old Testament. What He does do, though, is give you insight on how to live your life, what is right/wrong, and what to do in certain situations.




also, why can't we actually debate religious principles on the Religion thread? Like, interpretations of religious teachings. Why have we been debating the validity of religion for about 84 pages? There should be 2 separate threads for this.

[Extracheez]

yes, the bible is filled with genocides. That's what a few books of the bible are about. (Old Testament, of course). Which is a different covenant. Yeah, i know you're all going to say something like
"So you just take parts of the bible that fit your society and what YOU think is right and use it as an excuse for your bigotry."
Nope

The Old and New Testaments are about different covenants. Christianity is founded on the New Covenant, the one with Jesus, the one that involves us living the way Jesus did. We follow the teachings of Jesus and the New Testament. However, we know there's a lot of wisdom to be had by the Old Testament.
People, today, who go and kill and say that's what their god told them have mental problems. I don't think that God actually speaks to people like he did in the Old Testament. What He does do, though, is give you insight on how to live your life, what is right/wrong, and what to do in certain situations.

Thats a typical christian answer. Me being of catholic decent I always get surprised when people say it... God is Jesus' father... the creator... his word means nothing because his son came down and said "hai guyz liten up!"?

My second response is the weird, bigoted stuff isn't confined to the old testament like most people seem to think.

I don't think that God actually speaks to people like he did in the Old Testament. What He does do, though, is give you insight on how to live your life, what is right/wrong, and what to do in certain situations.

You don't think? Wheres your faith? How do you know that the crazy people are not visited by god? Medical science? Thats heathen talk sir. Back in the old testament there was no science, there was religion, demons, miracles!

Face it the only reason why god doesn't visit us anymore is because we are too smart to fall for peoples shit.

[LightningMunk]

hey guys, just had a topic on my mind, wonder what your guys' take on it.
my girlfriend is raised in a Lutheran family and her family is involved with the church she goes to. Both her parents were raised in the same town and went to the same church, so it would be natural for her to go as well. As for me, I was raised in a Catholic family, not too strict, but i went to a catholic school til 8th grade, went to church every once in awhile, but now I stop all together since I've begun to explore different religions and just keep an open mind on the subject overall, but just have a general philosophy of "doing good" and things will turn out ok.

so things are getting serious between us, and we always ask each other alot of questions, and i want to ask her about what religion she would want her kids to be. she is generally open minded to other religions but has her beliefs, and i really want my kids to have an open mind about religion and not enforcing any religion on them as they are being raised and develop one on their own, but if they have any questions they can ask me or my wife. she generally goes to church every week, but she views church more as a place to go to where other people who think the same as far as doing good goes and not really for a religious belief.

so how would i go about finding a medium about the religion of her kids? she is an incredibly amazing girl, but i just dont want religion to get in the way of something great, so any help would be great

[Smiley451]

hey guys, just had a topic on my mind, wonder what your guys' take on it.
my girlfriend is raised in a Lutheran family and her family is involved with the church she goes to. Both her parents were raised in the same town and went to the same church, so it would be natural for her to go as well. As for me, I was raised in a Catholic family, not too strict, but i went to a catholic school til 8th grade, went to church every once in awhile, but now I stop all together since I've begun to explore different religions and just keep an open mind on the subject overall, but just have a general philosophy of "doing good" and things will turn out ok.

so things are getting serious between us, and we always ask each other alot of questions, and i want to ask her about what religion she would want her kids to be. she is generally open minded to other religions but has her beliefs, and i really want my kids to have an open mind about religion and not enforcing any religion on them as they are being raised and develop one on their own, but if they have any questions they can ask me or my wife. she generally goes to church every week, but she views church more as a place to go to where other people who think the same as far as doing good goes and not really for a religious belief.

so how would i go about finding a medium about the religion of her kids? she is an incredibly amazing girl, but i just dont want religion to get in the way of something great, so any help would be great

not to be an asshole or anything, but it seems to me that you're missing the point of your religion, or ignoring parts of it. you should choose your spouse based on your religion (and a lot of other things). you should not choose your religion based on your spouse.
have the 2 of your just sat down and had an in depth discussion on this? because if you're committed to your religion, this should be a make or break for your marriage/relationship. it's never a good idea to get involved with someone, romantic or not, that has differing views on religion, morality, or interpretations of society.

as far as your kids go, i would say this. educate them with your (you and your lady-friend's) views of the world. try and raise them the way you want them to be raised (obviously). but don't put them in a religion right away. give them a general set of ideals and let them find their own path.

i don't have kids, and i'm not married, so i don't really have the most sage advice on this matter, but i do what i can.

[Garamiah]

not to be an asshole or anything, but it seems to me that you're missing the point of your religion, or ignoring parts of it. you should choose your spouse based on your religion (and a lot of other things). you should not choose your religion based on your spouse.
have the 2 of your just sat down and had an in depth discussion on this? because if you're committed to your religion, this should be a make or break for your marriage/relationship. it's never a good idea to get involved with someone, romantic or not, that has differing views on religion, morality, or interpretations of society.

as far as your kids go, i would say this. educate them with your (you and your lady-friend's) views of the world. try and raise them the way you want them to be raised (obviously). but don't put them in a religion right away. give them a general set of ideals and let them find their own path.

i don't have kids, and i'm not married, so i don't really have the most sage advice on this matter, but i do what i can.

I love how we arent allowed to have a say on how our country is run until we are 18 but we are expected to choose our ultimate destiny in religion before we turn ten.

[Starblaiz]

hey guys, just had a topic on my mind, wonder what your guys' take on it.
my girlfriend is raised in a Lutheran family and her family is involved with the church she goes to. Both her parents were raised in the same town and went to the same church, so it would be natural for her to go as well. As for me, I was raised in a Catholic family, not too strict, but i went to a catholic school til 8th grade, went to church every once in awhile, but now I stop all together since I've begun to explore different religions and just keep an open mind on the subject overall, but just have a general philosophy of "doing good" and things will turn out ok.

so things are getting serious between us, and we always ask each other alot of questions, and i want to ask her about what religion she would want her kids to be. she is generally open minded to other religions but has her beliefs, and i really want my kids to have an open mind about religion and not enforcing any religion on them as they are being raised and develop one on their own, but if they have any questions they can ask me or my wife. she generally goes to church every week, but she views church more as a place to go to where other people who think the same as far as doing good goes and not really for a religious belief.

so how would i go about finding a medium about the religion of her kids? she is an incredibly amazing girl, but i just dont want religion to get in the way of something great, so any help would be great

what Smiley and Garamiah said tbh. I personally think everyone should raise their kids with a basic set of (non-religious) fundamental rules of good and bad, IE tell them not to lie, cheat, steal, rape, torture or murder. As they grow up, make sure they are aware of all religions, and sciences, in equal measure, and let them make up their own minds. It shouldnt be up to the parents what religion their kids are, because that is such an archaic notion back from the times of the crusades when people didnt know any better. it should be up to the kids to decide for themselves in the modern age of information and truth what path they want to follow.

on a side note, I'm in two minds wether this should be merged into the main "Religion" thread that's stickied. what do you guys think? ~\/íƦù§52~

[Lisa!]

what Smiley and Garamiah said tbh. I personally think everyone should raise their kids with a basic set of (non-religious) fundamental rules of good and bad, IE tell them not to lie, cheat, steal, rape, torture or murder. As they grow up, make sure they are aware of all religions, and sciences, in equal measure, and let them make up their own minds. It shouldnt be up to the parents what religion their kids are, because that is such an archaic notion back from the times of the crusades when people didnt know any better. it should be up to the kids to decide for themselves in the modern age of information and truth what path they want to follow.

on a side note, I'm in two minds wether this should be merged into the main "Religion" thread that's stickied. what do you guys think? ~\/íƦù§52~

I agree with you for both things Like, I was in the catholic school system my whole life, and basically my parents chose that for me, but after I just decided myself that it was all a load of crap.