2248 replies to this topic

[MCClammer]

All I'm saying is that God having no creator makes more sense to me than random pieces of matter having no creator. But, as BA said, no evidence at hand, so we're not going to be able to prove anything.

Dude, look at what you said..

it is the same idea.

There is proof and hypothesis's being tested, just we all lack PHD's so.. we can't do much.

Swearing edited out. -Ximensions

[BlightedArt]

MCClammer, it's good to see you contributing your beliefs and everything, but please try keep the swearing to a minimum. We're going to be rather strict in this section when it comes to moderating.

So, here's a quick question... If two poor folk were to steal a loaf of bread, one for himself, and the other to feed his family... The obvious upcomming question would be: "Is the one that stole bread for his family a sinner?"

[Criss]

In my opinion, although it's one of the most debated topics there is, there isn't much to debate about religion. Either you believe, or you don't; you can't debate beliefs.

I'd love nothing more than to have some form of religion to give my life more of a purpose, but honestly, as much as I learn about religion, I just can't blindly follow something like that, not without truly believing. And how can I truly believe if my beliefs are based on blind faith?

Like I said, these are just my beliefs, and are based on no facts, which means it really isn't debatable. If you can prove to me there is a God through debating, I will not argue, only commend and thank you.

[BlightedArt]

In my opinion, although it's one of the most debated topics there is, there isn't much to debate about religion. Either you believe, or you don't; you can't debate beliefs.

I'd love nothing more than to have some form of religion to give my life more of a purpose, but honestly, as much as I learn about religion, I just can't blindly follow something like that, not without truly believing. And how can I truly believe if my beliefs are based on blind faith?

Like I said, these are just my beliefs, and are based on no facts, which means it really isn't debatable. If you can prove to me there is a God through debating, I will not argue, only commend and thank you.

In a way that's the same thing with science though... I'm not sure who posted it before, but it was on these forums about a student and his science teacher (the student was religious) getting into a relatively heated debate about Science vs Religion, both and neither of them won the arguement in the end. If anyone can find that I'd greatly appreciate it, I searched to no avail.

This is why agnosticism is good for me... You just live your life by morals that don't completely restrict you, but they guide you to a rather pleasant path. I mean... I'm not religious really, atleast I'm not Catholic (I'm Protestant Christian mostly), but I try my best not to say anything blasphomous, though don't think too much of it if I do say it. It's very hard to explain... Sort of like sitting way up on top of the fence for me... and there's a good view from up here.

Can anyone try answer my question about the stealing bread?

[Criss]

Consider I'm not religious in any way, the only way I can answer that is if I go by my own standards of moral conduct. Also, what setting is this...? I mean, if it's present day in a well-provided country, it's still immoral. Did he not ask for the aid of friends, the people of his community, his government..? It really just depends on the setting of this hypothetical situation.

[Tw!sT3d Sn!p3r]

I thought myself to be a Athiest, untill I read Tubys post today... Its in general. I still kind of feel like there is nothing out ther, but why should society judge me because of my beleifs. I feel like anything not Crhistian or Roman is automaticaly rejected from society because its not among the more popular. The reason I am a athiest is because there is no physical proof that a greater and superior being exsist. Would you beleive I saw a fucking unicorn inless you actually saw it? No! But now I cant even tell people that Im a athiest because I will normally get a dirty look, and never be friends with this person, or I will get a verbal bitch slap. When people give me lectures about why I will go to hell, I let them finish... But then I tell them why it doesnt scare me because I obviously dont beleive in such a thing? Yah, news flash scare tactic doesnt work! The number one thing a parent doesnt want their child marrying, is a Athiest. Great, not only does society shake its finger at me, but I can never get full accepted in the heart of my fiance's parents. Super! Spatze! <3 Not hate guys, seriously.

[Criss]

I thought myself to be a Athiest, untill I read Tubys post today... Its in general. I still kind of feel like there is nothing out ther, but why should society judge me because of my beleifs. I feel like anything not Crhistian or Roman is automaticaly rejected from society because its not among the more popular. The reason I am a athiest is because there is no physical proof that a greater and superior being exsist. Would you beleive I saw a fucking unicorn inless you actually saw it? No! But now I cant even tell people that Im a athiest because I will normally get a dirty look, and never be friends with this person, or I will get a verbal bitch slap. When people give me lectures about why I will go to hell, I let them finish... But then I tell them why it doesnt scare me because I obviously dont beleive in such a thing? Yah, news flash scare tactic doesnt work! The number one thing a parent doesnt want their child marrying, is a Athiest. Great, not only does society shake its finger at me, but I can never get full accepted in the heart of my fiance's parents. Super! Spatze! <3 Not hate guys, seriously.

Oh, I can relate. I don't know how many times people's opinions of me have shifted once they found out I was not a Christian. People assume that because I am a nice girl, that I am a Christian. I actually lost a friend in high school once because I made the mistake of mentioning my religion. It shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of (your beliefs never should be!), but I confess, I find myself shying away from any religious discussion with people I admire, in fear of losing their friendship and respect.

[Tw!sT3d Sn!p3r]

Oh, I can relate. I don't know how many times people's opinions of me have shifted once they found out I was not a Christian. People assume that because I am a nice girl, that I am a Christian. I actually lost a friend in high school once because I made the mistake of mentioning my religion. It shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of (your beliefs never should be!), but I confess, I find myself shying away from any religious discussion with people I admire, in fear of losing their friendship and respect.

Yah... Alot of people can relate. Its sad to supresed by society. And so many are...

[Kadjel]

I'd greatly appreciate it, I searched to no avail.

WoW's down, might as well

A friend passed this onto me this evening. I read it and had a bit of a chuckle.
Most likely one of them untrue spam-mail things, but it's actually good for comical content.

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his
class on the problem
science has with God. He asks one of his new
students to stand and.....

Professor : You have a religion, do you, son?
Student : I do, Sir.
Prof. : So you believe in God?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Prof. : Is God good?
Student : Sure.
Prof. : Is God all-powerful?
Student : Yes.
Prof. : My brother died of cancer even though he
prayed to God to heal him. Most of us would
attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't.
How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)
Prof. : You can't answer, can you? Let's start
again, young fella. Is God
good?
Student : Yes.
Prof. : Is Satan good?
Student : No.
Prof. : Where does Satan come from?
Student : From...God...
Prof. : That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this
world?
Student :Yes.
Prof. : Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did
make everything. Correct?
Student : Yes.
Prof. : So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)
prof. : Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred?
Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student : Yes, sir.
Prof. : So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)
Prof. : Science says you have 5 senses you use to
identify and observe the world around you. Tell me,
son...Have you ever seen God?
Student : No, sir.
Prof. : Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student : No, sir.
Prof. : Have you ever felt your God, tasted your
God, smelt your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God
for that matter?
Student : No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.
Prof. : Yet you still believe in Him?
Student : Yes.
Prof. : According to empirical, testable,
demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to
that, son?
Student : Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof. : Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science
has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof. : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof. : Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn't (The lecture theatre
becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student : Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more
heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little
heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called
cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is
no heat, but we can't go any further after that.
There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word
we use to describe the absence of heat. We
cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not
the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)
Student : What about darkness, Professor? Is
there such athing as darkness?
Prof. : Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?
Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the
absence of something. You can have low light,
normal light, bright light, flashing light.... But if you
have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's
called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If
it were you would be able to make darkness,
darker, wouldn't you?
Prof. : So what is the point you are making, young
man?
Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical
premise is flawed.
Prof. : Flawed? Can you explain how?
Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of
duality. You argue there is life and then there is
death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing
the concept of God as something finite, something
we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a
thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has
never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view death, as the opposite of life isto be
ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life:
just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do
you teach your students that they evolved (Student
is from a monkey)?
Prof. : If you are referring to the natural evolutionary
process, yes, of
course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed evolution with
your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile,
beginning to realise where the argument is going.)
Student : Since no one has ever observed the
process of evolution at work and cannot even prove
that this process is an on-going endeavour, are you
not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a
scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar.)
Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever
seen the Professor's
brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)
Student : Is there anyone here, who has ever heard
the Professor's brain, felt it,touched or smelt it? No
one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have
no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we
then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the
student, his face Unfathomable.)
Prof. : I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.
Student : That is it sir. The link between man &
god is FAITH. That is all
that keeps things moving & alive.

I saw this on another forum, and I thought I would post it here.

I agree with both the professor and the student. Unless God can be proven to exist, I will not believe in him. No offence to christans or anyone else. I respect people's beliefs and opinions, but for me, unless something can be proven, I don't really believe in it. There are some exceptions, like I know you can't feel, touch, hear, see, or taste love, but I still belive in it.

------------------------------------------------------------

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem
science has with God, The Almighty.

He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof: So you believe in God?

Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?

Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?

Student: Yes.

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God
didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God
good?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?

Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?

Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?

Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.
Correct?

Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?

(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?

Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?

(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?

Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your
God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?

Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?

Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science
says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?

Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?

Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?

Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.

(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even
more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.
But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below
zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is
no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy. Cold is not the
opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.

(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student : You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light....But if
you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness,
isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to
make
darkness darker, wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue
there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are
viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity
and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either
one.To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life: just the absence of it.

Now tell me, Professor.Do you teach your students that they evolved from
a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of
course, I do.

Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?

(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where
the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor,
are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a
preacher? (The class is in uproar.)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's
brain?

(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain,
felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain,sir.

With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?

(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face
unfathomable.)

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH. That is
all that keeps things moving & alive.

Can anyone try answer my question about the stealing bread?

So, here's a quick question... If two poor folk were to steal a loaf of bread, one for himself, and the other to feed his family... The obvious upcomming question would be: "Is the one that stole bread for his family a sinner?"

I think the whole "thou shalt not steal" thing is based upon unnessicary things. If someone needs the food and steals(for self or family) it's not really a sin. But if those people refused charity, because of their pride, and resorted to stealing; then i think it's a sin. Stealing something for the pure reason of "me likey" is a sin. The commandments are guidlines as far as i'm concerned, nothing is concrete forever.

[Criss]

Yah... Alot of people can relate. Its sad to supresed by society. And so many are...

It's a fact of society you learn to accept, or you end up forever cynical and bitter. It's not only religion; that just happens to be the most common issue.

/EDIT
That's a really, really good post, and I like the point it makes.

(LOL at the WoW comment.. I'm pretty bored myself. )

[Tw!sT3d Sn!p3r]

So, here's a quick question... If two poor folk were to steal a loaf of bread, one for himself, and the other to feed his family... The obvious upcomming question would be: "Is the one that stole bread for his family a sinner?"

Im sure a preacher and anyone with humanity would say, no. Why? But dont they need it badly?! They cant afford that! Im sure a preacher would say, they had better work for it. There are plenty of ways for a homeless person to actual earn money instead of stealing it.

[Criss]

Which is why I said it depends on the setting. Obviously, in today's world (in most places), there are many ways to avoid stealing food to avoid hunger.

[nigy]

I am atheist. Yes, atheist, not agnostic.

I think that religion sprouted up way long ago simply to explain all the wonders of the universe, namely creation , the seasons, etc, when back then the science to really answer those questions didn't really exist.

[piggyspizza]

I am atheist. Yes, atheist, not agnostic.

I think that religion sprouted up way long ago simply to explain all the wonders of the universe, namely creation , the seasons, etc, when back then the science to really answer those questions didn't really exist.

Yes science did explain some awnsers, but light Blighted said were did the first 2 atoms come from?
Also alot of scientist believe that there was a major flood on Mars a very long time ago, and while visiting the Grand Canyon, Scientist said "You know how much time, and little amount of water it took to make this?

How do the same scientist belive there was a flood on a planet with almost no water, but can't belive there was a massive flood with a planet completly covered in water?

[BlightedArt]

Yes science did explain some awnsers, but light Blighted said were did the first 2 atoms come from?
Also alot of scientist believe that there was a major flood on Mars a very long time ago, and while visiting the Grand Canyon, Scientist said "You know how much time, and little amount of water it took to make this?

How do the same scientist belive there was a flood on a planet with almost no water, but can't belive there was a massive flood with a planet completly covered in water?

Maybe there would be some differences in the water there due to atmospheric properties or something? I dunno, but there would be some sort of mutation in the atoms that consist in the waters that could be on Mars as opposed to the waters here on earth. If that's the case it could be a possible explanation. THere are some religious believers that believe Mars does not even exist I think.

[MCClammer]

I am atheist. Yes, atheist, not agnostic.

I think that religion sprouted up way long ago simply to explain all the wonders of the universe, namely creation , the seasons, etc, when back then the science to really answer those questions didn't really exist.

Yeah, I used to be agnostic, then atheist, then agnostic again, but now, I am Christian, but really, Christian in the nice way, I don't discriminate and admit there is really proof for God's existance, though I believe that we will prove the big bang happened. I beleive some stuff was primal and to explain and some stuff in the Bible was real and we were meant to learn from it, though I will not push my beliefs on you.

[MaxDamage]

Anyone who 'supresses', looks down on or is prejudiced against you for not sharing their belief in Christianity is not paying very much attention to the Bible. Never mind your 'friends' or relations that don't share your beliefs.. one of the most difficult but interesting things written in there is the line 'love your enemy'.

I have no respect for the way some 'preachers' or closed-minded individuals try to enforce their own private view of Christianity. It sickens me to see the commercialisation of aspects of the (or any) religion and watering down of texts - even if I do honestly believe there is a lot of room for evolution and the removal of dated principles, which the 'higher orders' seem reluctant to admit.

It also says that those who don't choose to follow the 'course laid' by the Bible, but live a good life - will also 'find salvation', so those people you are talking about better buck their ideas up if they're belief in Heaven is is true - because they may end up having to duke it out with the guys they were condescending to in the afterlife.

[Tuffins]

Let me just say this: WHOA. Misunderstandings HERE and THERE and HERE and THERE. I only skimmed the first page, and selected a few things to comment on, as a Christian, from pages 2-4.

And it's not just Christians, most hardcore religous people oppose any kind of advance in society, which pisses me off to the point of exploding. In a world where we are clearly advancing, and things change every bloody day, they still stand rigid, as if nothing has moved.


Also Christianity is confusing as shit, they are monotheistic, yet you always hear them say Jesus is the son of God, then call Jesus God himself. Unless Jesus is his own father, that's wrong. Also, Jesus came back from the dead? You call sodomy unnatural while your Lord is a freaking zombie, SHAME!

1. Christians don't oppose advancement in science.

2. We worship one God. God = Jesus Christ = Holy Spirit. They are 3 individuals in one.

More on it: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm

Speaking of killing people because of religion;
Theres a little paradox it self when the bible says that you shall not kill, but is it okay to kill if they are non'beliver or any other reason they would have to kill 'em.
The Islamic holy book (forgot how to write the original name in english, so lets say The islamic holy book )
Any way... The islamic holy book also says that you shall not kill, but if you die like a martyr you'll get 71 virgins.... like wtf.

1. Please, show me WHERE in the Bible it says "Do not kill". I couldn't find it myself. I do, however, find "Do not murder". Gigantic difference. If it said, "Do not kill", then that'd mean you would be sinning when you were simply defending yourself from attack and killing your attacker. Murder is premeditated, killing isn't.

2. I have no idea what Islam says about that hundreds of virgin thing, although it IS plainly written that you will receive them; but I assume there must be SOME kind of explanation.

It's a tough cookie to bite... Just when I read the bible as research for Vial Of Janus, there were a lot of passages at the beginning stating that the individuals of the story lived for near 900 years or even more... I can't see how that is possible at all. Science can't seem to back up any evidence to the universes creation (they say the big bang yes, but that happened when two atoms collided with each other... what made the atoms? How long were they there for? When did time begin etc etc)... The main thing that sticks out to me is finding the bones and fossils from prehistoric times and creatures. A friend of mine was saying he was talking about this sort of things before, he is not religious but the other party was.

He asked about the dinosaurs and an explanation as to why their remains were there, and the other said that they were "put there by god to test us". While many of you might see this as true, I just can't really accept that no matter how hard I try.

Science is winning for me, and while Skree says that religion is no longer about trying to exclude science as an opponent in gathering believers, it's hard to shake the feeling that the same motive still stands subliminaly in its campaign.

1. Yes, Adam, Eve, Moses, etc. lived over 120 years old. (Some lived 500; others 900). We, as Christians, take this in as fact. Faith.

Although, some people do come up with theories, like the air was better, etc. which may be true, or not be true. Either way, I believe they truly lived over 120 years old. I say 120 because IIRC some person said it would be impossible for them to exist since it's impossible for somebody to live over 120.

But isn't Pride considered the deadliest of the seven sins, because it can spark the initiative to do any of the 7 since overall?

Pride is no more "deadly" than saying "fuck off" to your neighbor, or any other sin. I don't recall finding any passage in the Bible saying that there were 7 very deadly sins; it must be just another thing created by the Catholic Church. Of course, all the 7 Deadly Sins, ARE sins.

Pride - not bad.

Bad pride - bad. Bad pride is when you're proud of something that's bad. Or something. Like, SO proud you think you don't need God.

You get the idea.

I have two theories going through my mind when I look at this;

1. Similarly to what Skree said, lifespan may be a curve. There are not very many places in the world where life expectancy is between 40 and 60, as it tends to be extremes. In the past, pollution was non-existent, also, many of the diseases and illnesses we experience today simply did not exist back then.

2. The calendar has been changed. The way we work out a year now is most certainly different from how they measured it then. This doesn't totally explain the 800 years that Noah lived, but it does help. It could be measured in seasons (unlikely, but plausible. Some people in genesis would have to have been fathers at around 10-12) or 12 moon cycles could also be a year.

#1 is a theory some people have on how they lived so long.

#2, I don't really accept as much. The Bible accounts for hundreds of ages:

Noah - 900 years old
Jesus - 33 years old IIRC

If the Bible really meant that Noah was only 100 years old, did it really mean that Jesus was only 5 when He died?

IMO, all the years are consistent in the Bible. Noah lived to 900, Jesus to 33.

Semi off-topic, but in my opinion, baptism and being a Christian do not go side by side always. I know a lot of people who have been christened/baptised as a baby, and aren't Christians.

That's because baptism as a baby doesn't do anything; it doesn't guarantee salvation and I don't agree with the Catholic's view on baptism.

IMO, you need to be a Christian before you get baptised. Just because a baby is born into a Christian family doesn't mean it's a Christian.

Who created God?

Nobody did. God always was, is, and always will be. In fact, it doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

God is binded by the laws of time. For him, there doesn't need to be a beginning or an end. Of course, this bring up the question, "Can God remember the beginning? If He can, then how did He come do be?" etc. and all those questions nobody can answer. If we knew the answer to them, then we'd be God, because only God knows.

The idea is so illogical, which is why it's hard to grasp. Time doesn't necessarily apply to God. Wierd.

MCClammer, it's good to see you contributing your beliefs and everything, but please try keep the swearing to a minimum. We're going to be rather strict in this section when it comes to moderating.

So, here's a quick question... If two poor folk were to steal a loaf of bread, one for himself, and the other to feed his family... The obvious upcomming question would be: "Is the one that stole bread for his family a sinner?"

Yes. He is a sinner. God says "Thou shall not steal," and the man stole. God said it's better to gouge your eyes than to sin.

It's better to die from starvation and still be saved, than to live and eventually die and go to Hell.

Of course, God won't put somebody in that situation. AND, if God does, then either of these things will happen:

1. The man steals the food, feeds his family, and they fortunately live long enough to get help. The man stole, but if he prayed for forgiveness, and was truly sorry, he would be forgiven. It's all good.

2. The man doesn't steal the bread. Who's to say that God honors this man's righteousness and MIRACULOUSLY either:
a. let's them find some bread

or

b. let's them endure until they get help.





If it's an IF question, there's your IF answer.

WoW's down, might as well
I think the whole "thou shalt not steal" thing is based upon unnessicary things. If someone needs the food and steals(for self or family) it's not really a sin. But if those people refused charity, because of their pride, and resorted to stealing; then i think it's a sin. Stealing something for the pure reason of "me likey" is a sin. The commandments are guidlines as far as i'm concerned, nothing is concrete forever.

However, you say that the man is not sinning because he NEEDs the food so badly he needs to sin in order to get it. I have faith that there will always be a way that does not involve sinning.

The Bible says that God will never put you in a situation which you cannot handle.

[Kiron]

Yes science did explain some awnsers, but light Blighted said were did the first 2 atoms come from?
Also alot of scientist believe that there was a major flood on Mars a very long time ago, and while visiting the Grand Canyon, Scientist said "You know how much time, and little amount of water it took to make this?

How do the same scientist belive there was a flood on a planet with almost no water, but can't belive there was a massive flood with a planet completly covered in water?

They can tell where water was and how much there was by the rock sedement, Mars once was covered by oceans but the magnetic field around the planet faded away so it was pretty much burnt alive by solar flares.

Nobody did. God always was, is, and always will be. In fact, it doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

God is binded by the laws of time. For him, there doesn't need to be a beginning or an end. Of course, this bring up the question, "Can God remember the beginning? If He can, then how did He come do be?" etc. and all those questions nobody can answer. If we knew the answer to them, then we'd be God, because only God knows.

The idea is so illogical, which is why it's hard to grasp. Time doesn't necessarily apply to God. Wierd.

"Nobody did. The Universe always was, is, and always will be. In fact, it doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

The Universe is binded by the laws of time. For The Universe , there doesn't need to be a beginning or an end."

THere are some religious believers that believe Mars does not even exist I think.

Hell, most Religions state the world is flat.


Logic in the end just shows that Religion is infact just cute little stories from primitive people to explain what they did not understand, and because of passage of time, they have been accepted by fact, hell noone here belives in Scientology because its what? 50 years old, but If Scientology was 1000 years old, how many people do you think would believe in it?.

What Religion needs to do is stay the hell away from Moral debates like stem cell research or therapeutic cloning, because some imaginary creature dos'nt like it, is no reason to stop something that could save millions of lives, oh wait I guess its not Religion totally at fault, when you have retards like Tony Abbot and the famliy first party screaming stuff like "OMG COW MEN COULD TAKE OVAR TEH WORLD!!!!11!1!!!11!!" oh also You know what really aggrivates me about Christians, when you post something from the old testement that is totally out there, like killing children or something then they say "Dos'nt count, Old Testement" then they cry about Gay marrige which is from the? OLD TESTEMENT, Not only is it from the Old Testement, its from Duet, a book that just pretty much glorfies Genocide, Slavery, Sexisim and Rape, Pretty much a book written for radicals.

[Tw!sT3d Sn!p3r]

I supose in the end, Ill we have is faith in our opinion, of the end/after life. For me, Im a sciencey guy. I beleive when I die, I dont come back as anything else. Nor do I live there on after. But if I ever did choose a religion... Being born as somthing else would be pretty cool. Its imposible to prove gods exsistance, or his void. The reason I wouldnt become a chirstian is because look at all of the things your "god" has done... Considering he is the creater of all things. 9/11, diseases, cancer, autism... War... Uglyness, stupidness, biasm. Considering he did create all of this, why would he? I just dont get it...