2248 replies to this topic

[Hrugnir]

@Hrugnir Thanks for your support, but yet again blind hatred for a satanist is portrayed throughout. This thread should SERIOUSLY be called "Main Stream Religions + Atheism/Agnosticism/Scepticism", because it seriously pisses me off that people don't really have any point to make, they just want to argue about beliefs. I should have just came in this topic and wrote "Fuck you all", think I'd still get the same reaction from cocky people that don't like them being questioned on their beliefs and religion, but are fine trying to argue over someone elses. Tis ridiculous, and in fact it isn't a debate, it is a bash thread currently against me. I only came to share my religion, maybe discuss and debate a few points to which it might interest some, its ended up pure blind hatred. Typical eh? And us Satanists are supposed to be the ones full of hatred haha.

Are you saying that I've been portraying blind hatred, or this thread in general?

Regardless, I hope you have the ability to distinguish words directed towards ideologies and religious systems and words directed towards individuals. Also, when someone disagrees with your reasoning, that doesn't mean they "hate you blindly". I do think many bad words have been directed to various proponents of various positions, and I'm guilty of saying such things. However, I believe the best thing is always to interpret everything as well as possible. If everyone is always looking for ways of getting hurt by what others say, it's only a matter of time before everyone is hurt and thinks everyone else is out for them.

This being said, I will not pretend like I do not have opinions about your religion. However, this opinion is not particularly unique towards your particular religion. But sometimes people seem to divide attitudes towards other thought systems into only two categories: Blind hatred and ignorance, or acceptance. My maxim is to love all human beings (in my attitude), but also to love the truth, as far as I feel it is revealed to me. With this mindset, I can be very opposed to a certain ideology or religion (say, Capitalism or Hinduism), while still loving that person (the Capitalist or Hindu) as much as I can! In fact, if I truly love a person who I believe is on the wrong track, it is less loving to entirely ignore that.

However, considering this is the "Debate section", with a big disclaimer on top, anyone who comes into this topic should be prepared for just that - people who question your beliefs. But those who ask questions need to be open for new ideas and not assume that they know everything about a person who claims to be connected to a certain religious tradition.

Anyways, I hope we can continue this conversation in a good tone, and not one of ridiculing or with a condescending tone!

[way2lazy2care]

You come across a real idiot. A real fucking idiot. First, you were the antagonistic bastard. Second it does involve the kirlian aura, that is where that term funnily enough comes from. Black magick obviously does have actual power, the power of the mind, as explained. I don't think a comedian could come up with your shit. I already told you MANY times that Satan isn't the centre of ANY satanism, he is a part of it. Please, don't reply, because your replies are fucking worthless to provoke me. You have no common sense, no real points of argument, no actual position in ideology, NO knowledge on the subject of satanism (and I mean NON), and you have proven absolutely nothing apart from the fact that you can dodge a lot of what I've said. (Or maybe you just can't understand it, which is what I'm beginning to be led to believe). Anyway, don't reply, I don't want to read your shit worthless replies that are posted PURELY for the sake of arguing, and in fact I will ignore any future replies from you as I think they are ignorant and pointless.

He'd probably be a little more ready to understand your system if you answered any of the questions he's asked you instead of just calling him a "fucking idiot" and an "antagonistic bastard."

He is asking questions about things you have said, and, rather than answering his questions, you are launching into tirades without actually answering his questions.

[Teh_Avatar]

Are you saying that I've been portraying blind hatred, or this thread in general?

Regardless, I hope you have the ability to distinguish words directed towards ideologies and religious systems and words directed towards individuals. Also, when someone disagrees with your reasoning, that doesn't mean they "hate you blindly". I do think many bad words have been directed to various proponents of various positions, and I'm guilty of saying such things. However, I believe the best thing is always to interpret everything as well as possible. If everyone is always looking for ways of getting hurt by what others say, it's only a matter of time before everyone is hurt and thinks everyone else is out for them.

This being said, I will not pretend like I do not have opinions about your religion. However, this opinion is not particularly unique towards your particular religion. But sometimes people seem to divide attitudes towards other thought systems into only two categories: Blind hatred and ignorance, or acceptance. My maxim is to love all human beings (in my attitude), but also to love the truth, as far as I feel it is revealed to me. With this mindset, I can be very opposed to a certain ideology or religion (say, Capitalism or Hinduism), while still loving that person (the Capitalist or Hindu) as much as I can! In fact, if I truly love a person who I believe is on the wrong track, it is less loving to entirely ignore that.

However, considering this is the "Debate section", with a big disclaimer on top, anyone who comes into this topic should be prepared for just that - people who question your beliefs. But those who ask questions need to be open for new ideas and not assume that they know everything about a person who claims to be connected to a certain religious tradition.

Anyways, I hope we can continue this conversation in a good tone, and not one of ridiculing or with a condescending tone!

No I am certainly not saying you are portraying blind hatred, I mean this thread in general. You yourself are actually quite open, informative, acceptive and reasonable with points. I can understand why people do not agree with my religion, why some dislike it, feel I'm "misguided" or some in fact hate it, but these things are personal choices and opinions.

And I don't mind people questioning my beliefs, or asking questions, but Rob is CERTAINLY neither of those. He has been antagonistic from the start, aggressive and just there to be argumentative. There is a difference between having a debate, and being argumentative just for the fact of being argumentative, which Rob is certainly being. I used some strong aggressive language in my last post which I shouldn't of done, so I will reduce that, but I have sent a PM to Rob, because I think that that is rather the place for the type of conversation he is looking for on this subject.

He'd probably be a little more ready to understand your system if you answered any of the questions he's asked you instead of just calling him a "fucking idiot" and an "antagonistic bastard."

He is asking questions about things you have said, and, rather than answering his questions, you are launching into tirades without actually answering his questions.

I have answered him and answered him, time and time and time again and he just doesn't seem to understand the answers or something. There is a limit to how many times one can repeat himself to drill points into someone. He has made about 5 posts just on one statement, in which he has just agreed was written to provoke people and nothing more. His last post doesn't contain a single question at all, and in fact it has no basis, everything has been clearly answered before. Should I just keep typing "read previous post"? It's obviously a mental block that I can't get through. Not really because he is stupid to be honest, but because he doesn't understand my point. BUT he doesn't CHOOSE to want to understand it either. His points have ALL been answered anyway, he is just being provocative and flame baiting just to fuel his aggression towards me. He has been aggressive from post one for no reason, he has no stance in any of his posts, he just wants to argue, and someone like that shouldn't visit the debate forum IMO.

Edited by Teh_Avatar, 06 September 2010 - 03:53 PM.

[way2lazy2care]

I have answered him and answered him, time and time and time again and he just doesn't seem to understand the answers or something.

but you aren't answering him. You are just restating what you've already said. Explanations imply clarification and elaboration. You aren't explaining what you believe anything to be.

For example, with black magic he asked, "So in other words you believe that black magick has nothing more to offer than a placebo affect. You don't believe that they have any actual power. How is that in any way consistent with the idea that black magick works?" That's a reasonable question. From what you've said, black magic offers the same effects of taking sugar pills with the label "Make everything better pills." This is your opportunity to answer his question and elaborate on your faith. Instead you said, "Black magick obviously does have actual power, the power of the mind, as explained."

That is not an answer to his question. You are answering his question by telling him to reread the statement he was questioning and then getting angry about it.

[Teh_Avatar]

but you aren't answering him. You are just restating what you've already said. Explanations imply clarification and elaboration. You aren't explaining what you believe anything to be.

For example, with black magic he asked, "So in other words you believe that black magick has nothing more to offer than a placebo affect. You don't believe that they have any actual power. How is that in any way consistent with the idea that black magick works?" That's a reasonable question. From what you've said, black magic offers the same effects of taking sugar pills with the label "Make everything better pills." This is your opportunity to answer his question and elaborate on your faith. Instead you said, "Black magick obviously does have actual power, the power of the mind, as explained."

That is not an answer to his question. You are answering his question by telling him to reread the statement he was questioning and then getting angry about it.

I'm amazed you don't understand that Rob is just trolling this lol. He even PM'ed me back with "rofl", he isn't interested in an answer, he is PURELY interested in flame baiting and personal attacks. Anyway, seeing as someone asked who wasn't just blatently flame baiting and trolling;

Black magick works on concepts of the mind. That is what black magick is, using the mind, its use of imagery, imagination etc to aid things. You focus these powers of the mind to a greater benefit. You can use the mind to control emotions, to control sensations, senses etc. These are all controlled by the mind, and hence black magick (a method of using the mind to a greater potential) to control these things. So basically black magick is a method of utilizing the mind in a certain way, of empowering your mind to help control these emotions etc. And thus, in comparison to the sugar pills which literally ONLY have the effect of telling your mind it is going to make everything better, black magick is a way to kind of utilize that effect if that makes sense. It is a trained experience that is used to help overcome the struggle.

For example, you trap your finger in a door or something. You feel great pain, but pain is an emotion. With knowledge on how to control the pain, you can hide the pain and not feel it as much as someone else without the knowledge. This is obviously something that you can't suddenly just do without training of the mind, or training of black magick. Black magick is conciously using the mind for effects. So again, in your example, the sugar pills are subconciously effecting the mind to make you think they are doing good, black magick can be used conciously to make you feel better. Of course, there are high risks with just doing black magick, for example in this case, it will make you feel better, but the illness is still there. I hope that clears it up for you.

I didn't bother replying in substance to Rob because he isn't interested. Don't kid yourself into thinking he is, if you read everything he has wrote you will notice he isn't interested on actual knowledge on these points. And I was actually talking about other points that have been clearly answered, or even points that are just completely irrelevant but have been bought up time and time again just to cause an argument. Hell, he didn't even read all my points before he started coming to accusations and arguing points lol. It's so blatant that he isn't interested :\

[Rob`]

I'm amazed you don't understand that Rob is just trolling this lol. He even PM'ed me back with "rofl", he isn't interested in an answer, he is PURELY interested in flame baiting and personal attacks. Anyway, seeing as someone asked who wasn't just blatently flame baiting and trolling;

I'm not sure how else I was meant to respond to

You OBVIOUSLY have an issue with my beliefs and an issue with me. Why do you post BULLSHIT just to argue? SIMPLY just to argue too. It is frustrating, makes yourself look like an idiot on the forums and is just full of personal attacks and sarcasm. You have an issue with me so tell me in a private message. If you don't like my beliefs, then go fuck yourself, I'm not asking you to like them. In fact, I'd probably rather someone with so much hatred as yourself didnt follow the same beliefs I have. You are a dangerous person, full of anger, hatred, you are an argumentative person and you don't read points or accept other peoples views. You are blinded, you are worse than ANY religious person I've met, and from the sounds of it you don't actually follow any religion? Which makes it even more bizarre! So come on, what is your problem? Out with it.

[Teh_Avatar]

I'm not sure how else I was meant to respond to

State your issue with me? You obviously have them. You couldn't give a shit about my faith, you've made that very clear, so why you trolling me? lol. The private message is quite self explanatory, what is your problem? From your first post you have been aggressive, I'd like to know why? Do you feel strongly against Satanism? You didn't reply to my PM because you aren't interested in discussing Satanism or my beliefs. You aren't open to points, you are just here to troll and flame bait as I've stated. Otherwise you'd of given a reasonable reply to a reasonable question "what is your problem?"

Edit: Ah, I see you read my response and have still not answered me. At least now it is obvious to all that you aren't actually interested in anything I have had to say. I feel real appreciated sharing something so controversial with you.

Edited by Teh_Avatar, 06 September 2010 - 04:55 PM.

[Hrugnir]

No I am certainly not saying you are portraying blind hatred, I mean this thread in general. You yourself are actually quite open, informative, acceptive and reasonable with points. I can understand why people do not agree with my religion, why some dislike it, feel I'm "misguided" or some in fact hate it, but these things are personal choices and opinions.

Thank you. As long as it's tolerable to agree to disagree (even radically disagree), there is room for love and actually learning something. Nothing is more demeaning to a person's worth than when someone refuses to look past differences of opinion.

And I don't mind people questioning my beliefs, or asking questions, but Rob is CERTAINLY neither of those. He has been antagonistic from the start, aggressive and just there to be argumentative. There is a difference between having a debate, and being argumentative just for the fact of being argumentative, which Rob is certainly being. I used some strong aggressive language in my last post which I shouldn't of done, so I will reduce that, but I have sent a PM to Rob, because I think that that is rather the place for the type of conversation he is looking for on this subject.

Alright... Well, I wasn't directing my post to you specifically, the situation just reminded me of an issue than I see in this whole topic, and on most of the Internet.

That being said, I do find it funny that you'd say some of your beliefs are backed up by science, only to continue by saying that the aforementioned science is "pseudo-science". "Pseudo-" is a Greek prefix for "false" or "lying"...

[Garamiah]

Black magick obviously does have actual power, the power of the mind, as explained.

You basically explained that it's suggestion and hypnosis. That is not black magick. It's not any magical at all. You can call it scientific because it is a science.

[Teh_Avatar]

Thank you. As long as it's tolerable to agree to disagree (even radically disagree), there is room for love and actually learning something. Nothing is more demeaning to a person's worth than when someone refuses to look past differences of opinion.

Exactly, I am perfectly open to critizism, and I hope this thread will continue now with Rob' maybe trying to open up a little bit and actually post like he gives a damn.

That being said, I do find it funny that you'd say some of your beliefs are backed up by science, only to continue by saying that the aforementioned science is "pseudo-science". "Pseudo-" is a Greek prefix for "false" or "lying"...

Sorry, I used the wrong word, the science of the mind I meant, psychological science is it called? I can't think of the actual term of it.

You basically explained that it's suggestion and hypnosis. That is not black magick. It's not any magical at all. You can call it scientific because it is a science.

That my friend is black magick, I forgot to quote my big post where it goes into it in a bit of detail, don't know if you checked that one or not, but it might be worth a read if not. Thank you for saying that it is a science, people were calling it pure faith earlier so had to clear that up. I guess it is strange that its called magick, when you look at something such as Harry Potter, but that is what it is called and always has been really. Use of imagery is very big though in using black magick to help control the mind, hence rituals are used and demons are called upon to give the mind strength in that certain demonic area. With the knowledge of the demon, it's just a way to strengthen the black magick 'spell'. There is a lot of aid from satan and his demons to achieve these effects, I guess one reason why it is called "black" magick. But we also believe in greater powers in the mind as well that can be used. It's all a bit of a strange sort of thing, I mean I have created a temple purely in my mind to worship satan, everything in it remains the same, lanterns, carpet everything. I bet a lot couldn't do that. If you have seen inception, black magick is almost similar to the dream state in that. But with its knowledge, you can apply it to others, and if they have no knowledge of it, you can really twist their mind to how you like and they are pretty much defenceless. This you can kind of relate to the point in inception of applying an idea to someone in the dream state.

Sidenote: If you haven't seen inception, I recommend it

Edited by Teh_Avatar, 07 September 2010 - 03:48 AM.

[Garamiah]

I'd like to make that point that, being based in suggestion, this 'magick' will not affect anyone who doesn't believe in it. Hypnosis only works on those who want to be hypnotised.

[fykusfire]

That's a funny thing, because I'm a bit of a Sumerian buff.

Enki was not "the creator". He (mostly) created mankind, but not the universe or the earth, nor was he "the god of this earth". He lived in a freshwater sea underneath the world, and *fought* demons, he didn't team up with them. I believe you've probably read stories about Enki from 19th and early 20th century pseudo-historians who did not have access to actual Sumerian tablets and could not translate the Sumerian language.

It seems you are trying to make a trickster god/satan association, but satan never appears as a trickster god in Judeo-Christian texts. In fact, in the popular folklore of many Judeo-Christian cultures, outwitting satan is a common theme. Therefore, it is odd that you would make this association. In Christianity, Satan is a creature of death, bondage, condemnation and anti-creation. He bears virtually no resemblance to Enki whatsoever, and saying that "Christians corrupted him" seems silly; if they have nothing in common, why think the Christians and Jews had him in mind in the first place?

I suppose you could actually make a bit of a Judeo-Christian God parallel just for fun with Enki: Enki has divine knowledge taken away from him against the order of creation by his daughter/seducer, the goddess Inanna, similar to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge against the will of God. Of course this parallel is nonsense . Enki also chooses to save one man's family from a world-flood, paralleling Noah and the Judeo-Christian God.

Actually, there may be more validity to teh avatar's beliefs than you might think. I would suggest a read of this: http://www.redmoonri...iza/DomDec6.htm about Enki (actually, I would suggest a reading of the entire series, but that's up to you). Much of what teh avatar has said is something of a common theme amongst Satanists. See this quote from the link above which itself was taken from the site exposingchristianity.com:

"[Christianity] is based upon stolen material that has been twisted, warped and distorted to manipulate, confuse and incite fear into humanity. CONTROL. It has taken the ORIGINAL GOD AND CREATOR OF HUMANITY, EA/ENKI aka SATAN/LUCIFER and turned him into an assumed enemy of humanity. It has been used to blaspheme, ridicule and malign the Old Gods, create estrangement and enmity from legitimate deities of which it replaced with the false god "Yaweh/Jehova." [16]

The originator of the Red Moon Rising site has went to great lengths to provide evidence that Enki may in fact be the one those who practice Abrahamic traditions and beliefs refer to as Satan. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that Enki is not referred to in the Sumerian religion as the creator of all. That is in fact Anu.

[Rob`]

There is a lot of aid from satan and his demons to achieve these effects, I guess one reason why it is called "black" magick.

So why exactly do you believe that you're getting aid from Satan and Demons as opposed to the idea that any benefits are the placebo affect, just like the placebo affect you get from acupuncture, prayer healing etc?

Edited by Rob`, 07 September 2010 - 11:40 AM.

[fykusfire]

You are one of few that doesn't hate me as this thread has kind of shown

I also do not hate you whatsoever Teh_Avatar. In fact, I find you fascinating for some reason.

[Pawnator]

Actually, there may be more validity to teh avatar's beliefs than you might think. I would suggest a read of this: http://www.redmoonri...iza/DomDec6.htm about Enki (actually, I would suggest a reading of the entire series, but that's up to you). Much of what teh avatar has said is something of a common theme amongst Satanists. See this quote from the link above which itself was taken from the site exposingchristianity.com:

"[Christianity] is based upon stolen material that has been twisted, warped and distorted to manipulate, confuse and incite fear into humanity. CONTROL. It has taken the ORIGINAL GOD AND CREATOR OF HUMANITY, EA/ENKI aka SATAN/LUCIFER and turned him into an assumed enemy of humanity. It has been used to blaspheme, ridicule and malign the Old Gods, create estrangement and enmity from legitimate deities of which it replaced with the false god "Yaweh/Jehova." [16]

The originator of the Red Moon Rising site has went to great lengths to provide evidence that Enki may in fact be the one those who practice Abrahamic traditions and beliefs refer to as Satan. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that Enki is not referred to in the Sumerian religion as the creator of all. That is in fact Anu.

I'm sorry, Fykus, but I simply cannot give an article like this any credence. I have fully investigated this theory about the Sumerians and the Nibiru theories are completely discredited. They rely on deliberately false translations, texts that are labeled Sumerian that are not Sumerian, and invented source material.

Also, Anu is actually the Akkadian and Babylonian version of An, the Sumerian firmament god. An, the firmament deity, and Ki, the earth deity, united and separated to create the earth; from this union was born air/space in-between the earth and the firmament, which became Enlil. Enlil was not depicted as a "judging adversary of man"; perhaps this perception was recovered by modern pseudoscholars from the Babylonian version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Note that Marduk had replaced Enlil in the Babylonian pantheon as the supreme leader of the Anunna gods, so Enlil had to take on a slightly different role.

Sumerian texts are no longer shrouded in 19th and early 20th century mystery and vagueness; many translations are available from the top scholars and top Universities in the world. As I've posted before, the Oxford Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature is a good start; there, you can see the evidence for yourself.

Edited by Pawnator, 07 September 2010 - 06:26 PM.

[fykusfire]

I'm sorry, Fykus, but I simply cannot give an article like this any credence. I have fully investigated this theory about the Sumerians and the Nibiru theories are completely discredited. They rely on deliberately false translations, texts that are labeled Sumerian that are not Sumerian, and invented source material.

Also, Anu is actually the Akkadian and Babylonian version of An, the Sumerian firmament god. An, the firmament deity, and Ki, the earth deity, united and separated to create the earth; from this union was born air/space in-between the earth and the firmament, which became Enlil. Enlil was not depicted as a "judging adversary of man"; perhaps this perception was recovered by modern pseudoscholars from the Babylonian version of the Epic of Gilgamesh. Note that Marduk had replaced Enlil in the Babylonian pantheon as the supreme leader of the Anunna gods, so Enlil had to take on a slightly different role.

Sumerian texts are no longer shrouded in 19th and early 20th century mystery and vagueness; many translations are available from the top scholars and top Universities in the world. As I've posted before, the Oxford Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature is a good start; there, you can see the evidence for yourself.

No need to apologize. I found the evidence presented on Red Moon Rising as sufficient in at least pondering as to why Satanists would believe Enki to be the same god (that has remained somewhat confusing to me in the past), hence why I included it. It doesn't necessarily make it a correct case study of course. I'm aware that Anu is the Akkadian version of An, to whom I was referencing. As far as Marduk? I'm not sure why you brought him into the conversation as I do not believe I had mentioned him, but Marduk did in fact replace Enlil as the supreme leader of the pantheon post-2500 B. C. That is true. However, he was never the chief. An, although kind of idle and in a hands-off position with regard to creation at that point, was still the chief.

[Teh_Avatar]

I'd like to make that point that, being based in suggestion, this 'magick' will not affect anyone who doesn't believe in it. Hypnosis only works on those who want to be hypnotised.

If you think so. But it is powerful mind work, there are many ways to apply black magick to people without them realising it is magick, it can do serious damage.

So why exactly do you believe that you're getting aid from Satan and Demons as opposed to the idea that any benefits are the placebo affect, just like the placebo affect you get from acupuncture, prayer healing etc?

Because for me I have interacted with these Demons, I have communicated with them. This could be just the greater work of the mind, but to me I accept it as true demonic powers are aiding me as for me I believe demons and Satan are very real entities.

I also do not hate you whatsoever Teh_Avatar. In fact, I find you fascinating for some reason.

Thanks, and thank you for looking at reasons why satanists believe Satan to be Enki and not just denying our points for this correlation.

I do want to seriously warn people to not try black magick for the fun of it. The effects are very real, and the things that happen to people that just want to test it out for fun can be very sad indeed.

[fykusfire]

Thanks, and thank you for looking at reasons why satanists believe Satan to be Enki and not just denying our points for this correlation.

You're welcome. Always nice to have differing opinions around, especially for the debate section.

[pcfirefly]

I woke up and I am already a Christian brought about by my parents and I never regretted it. Though as the saying goes to see is to believe. Even if I haven't seen God and if he is true or not. I still believe in Him. It gives me the hope that someone is out there and would save me. Believing that their is a God give me hope and inspiration that everything will be alright.

[Hrugnir]

I woke up and I am already a Christian brought about by my parents and I never regretted it. Though as the saying goes to see is to believe. Even if I haven't seen God and if he is true or not. I still believe in Him. It gives me the hope that someone is out there and would save me. Believing that their is a God give me hope and inspiration that everything will be alright.

While I don't think that kind of faith is bad in itself, I do encourage you to go deeper in your faith - Put the Bible to the test and see that indeed "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me"! (Phi 4:13)
Life with God isn't just about hope for the future, but a transformation of the heart and mind in the Now!

But God bless you, brother