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#1981
way2lazy2care

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QUOTE (Myth @ Mar 28 2010, 03:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and he is saying that wouldn't it be weird since the christian god is the same god as the muslim god, this god told christians one thing and muslems the other? it effectively makes it so that there actually isn't a belief structure that is really 'right'.

he is also wondering why christian belief system is different to that of the muslims (or that of jews for that matter) when they essentially believe in the same god. you believe that catholic belief is right, but why is it right? this isnt about repecting other religions, its about why your christian belief is 'right'. i was brought up as a catholic so i was conditioned to believing that everything in the bible was the truth. it was just the way it was. i didnt even think to question it. getting brought up as a christian is not a good reason for why the catholic belief is right though, and i'm curious as to how you came about your beliefs.

We don't believe mohammad is his prophet and thus don't believe that his teaching's are right. Likewise they don't believe Jesus is God's son.

I don't understand why that part of it is confusing.

I already have said in this thread how I came to my beliefs.
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#1982
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QUOTE (Myth @ Mar 28 2010, 03:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if you start to think that god is a man made thing, then doesnt the whole worshipping and following the god break down? i mean, theres nothing 'wrong' in the moral sense, but logically, it doesnt work in my head.

Actually to be honest I shouldn't have included worship in that thesis. I can't honestly say that I have a spiritual relationship with god, but I attend church because It keeps me down to earth. I would generally be worse off If it hadn't been for my church community.

#1983
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QUOTE (Thug Aim @ Mar 29 2010, 09:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Actually to be honest I shouldn't have included worship in that thesis. I can't honestly say that I have a spiritual relationship with god, but I attend church because It keeps me down to earth. I would generally be worse off If it hadn't been for my church community.


See that's something I have a problem with. I don't think religion brings you down to earth, more of the opposite in fact. You're attending church to follow a religious figure you seem to not believe in. From what you've said I take it you follow you're religion to try and lead a good life? Well, I think you can do that without having to go to church. Just do good for the sake of doing good, isn't that what helping others is all about? I get the impression that a lot of christians/ other religious people do good because they want to look good in gods eyes, and ensure that they are getting into heaven. So really, a lot of people just do good to get that payoff in the end, not because they actually give a shit about others.

#1984
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QUOTE (Dylantendo @ Mar 29 2010, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From what you've said I take it you follow you're religion to try and lead a good life?

I think he said the community of the church has helped him. Not just the faith. Having a strong community of like minded good people encouraging you to be a better person makes it that much easier to actually be a better person.

QUOTE
Well, I think you can do that without having to go to church. Just do good for the sake of doing good, isn't that what helping others is all about? I get the impression that a lot of christians/ other religious people do good because they want to look good in gods eyes, and ensure that they are getting into heaven. So really, a lot of people just do good to get that payoff in the end, not because they actually give a shit about others.

If they believe that, they must not have read the bible.
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QUOTE (Virus52 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#1985
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Take into account that I'm living in a christian household, so until I'm 18 and living on my own, I'm attending church. I agree with what you've stated, but generally doing good for the sake of doing good, isn't as quite as persuasive as the church. Christianity brings a lot of people together, many of which had not been leading a great life before that point. It's not everyday that you see non religious people accomplishing what organized religion has, and before you bring up extremists, yeah that stuff sucks, haters gonna hate.

#1986
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Happy Easter!


#1987
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The whole Easter story makes absolutely no sense.

The claim is God sacrificed his only son so that we may be forgiven for our sins.

I have a whole list of complaints which will now be stated using the appropriate set theory notation.

{When Jesus dies he goes to heaven back to God so that's not a sacrifice, Sacrificing your only son is the sort of thing an evil fuck does, why would God need to sacrifice his son to forgive us when he's basically omnipotent anyway?}

I know these points/questions aren't exactly original but I'm struggling to think of some satisfying answers here and completely failing.

Edited by Rob`, 05 April 2010 - 12:59 PM.

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#1988
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QUOTE (Thug Aim @ Mar 30 2010, 09:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Take into account that I'm living in a christian household, so until I'm 18 and living on my own, I'm attending church. I agree with what you've stated, but generally doing good for the sake of doing good, isn't as quite as persuasive as the church. Christianity brings a lot of people together, many of which had not been leading a great life before that point. It's not everyday that you see non religious people accomplishing what organized religion has, and before you bring up extremists, yeah that stuff sucks, haters gonna hate.


Your argument only holds half truths.
Throughout time, religion has killed millions of people. Crusades, inquistions, and religious genocides. The Church places women rights second to none and show huge injustice towards women. The pacifying of scientific discoveries that disprove or threaten "gods word" such as Galileos discovery of the Earth not being the centre of the universe and the more recent, Darwins theory of evolution. Without a doubt, we evolved from apes. Science has proved it, religion doesnt want to admit it with the same ignorance and conviction they showed to Galileo. Even worst, religion has come up with a theory that is questionable and full of plot holes such as Intelligent design and have it compete with the theory of evolution. This is a huge disgrace to an intellectual.

When you try to include reasoning into the world of religion, it just falls apart. For instance, how is it even possible that Adam and Eve were ancestors to the entire human race when we have such a diverse amount of people of different race and colour. How is this even possible.

Make of what you want, but as Richard Dawkins says, "Children are indoctrinated into their parents religion". For better or worst , By doing so, you are brainwashing your kid to believe in things you believe in before they have the chance to figure it out for themselves.

#1989
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QUOTE (Rob` @ Apr 5 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have a whole list of complaints which will now be stated using the appropriate set theory notation.

{When Jesus dies he goes to heaven back to God so that's not a sacrifice, Sacrificing your only son is the sort of thing an evil fuck does, why would God need to sacrifice his son to forgive us when he's basically omnipotent anyway?}

I know these points/questions aren't exactly original but I'm struggling to think of some satisfying answers here and completely failing.

That's not what happened when jesus died.

If only there were some book you could read that had all these answers you're too lazy to look for.
QUOTE
Throughout time, religion has killed millions of people. Crusades, inquistions, and religious genocides. The Church places women rights second to none and show huge injustice towards women. The pacifying of scientific discoveries that disprove or threaten "gods word" such as Galileos discovery of the Earth not being the centre of the universe and the more recent, Darwins theory of evolution. Without a doubt, we evolved from apes. Science has proved it, religion doesnt want to admit it with the same ignorance and conviction they showed to Galileo. Even worst, religion has come up with a theory that is questionable and full of plot holes such as Intelligent design and have it compete with the theory of evolution. This is a huge disgrace to an intellectual.

bad things have been done in the name of everything. The current church does not support everything it did through it's history. It actually denounces and condemns a good amount of it. There has been a lot of travesty in the name of science too; it's not like this is something exclusive to religion. Extremism is bad regardless of what sort of extremism is going on.

QUOTE
When you try to include reasoning into the world of religion, it just falls apart. For instance, how is it even possible that Adam and Eve were ancestors to the entire human race when we have such a diverse amount of people of different race and colour. How is this even possible.

dude... that exact same argument can be the stated against evolution. It shows a horrible understanding of the science you seem to be arguing for.
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QUOTE (Virus52 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#1990
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QUOTE (Rob` @ Apr 5 2010, 12:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
that's not a sacrifice


What lazy said.

Also: physical pain bro. Die of crucifixion and come back to tell me you didn't sacrifice shit.

QUOTE (Riddle @ Apr 5 2010, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
snip


Already been stated, extremism sucks, haters gonna hate. Point is, I'm not extremist. America used to thrive on slavery and racism, I don't hate them for it now though. I'm methodist, we don't discriminate women. It's just a fact, we don't.

I believe what makes sense to me. If you believe in evolution who's not to say our diverse races evolved from the original humans Adam and Eve. Also consider that fact that I am in no way sure of anything. While I don't think the universe was created solely for us (humans), I definitely believe in god, and a majority of the Bible.

I think our problem here is I don't know the correct name for my beleifs and I just vall myself methodist christian because that's how I've been raised. That's kind of living proof against what you said about raising children. Kids have minds of their own man (most of them). We do what we want.

#1991
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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 6 2010, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's not what happened when jesus died.


Ok sorry I got one little detail wrong. Jesus sacrificed himself so that our sins may be forgiven provided we accept him (so to speak).

...

That is the gist of it right? Well actually I know it's the gist of it so don't bother answering.

So to get into heaven we need to accept that Jesus did this for us and well, staking an eternal existence on a belief that any rational mind would need evidence to accept is just a bit silly if I'm honest.

Where am I going wrong here?

QUOTE
bad things have been done in the name of everything. The current church does not support everything it did through it's history. It actually denounces and condemns a good amount of it.


That's wonderful. What about the discrimination going on now because of Christianity? Like say the whole issue of homosexuality. You can't tell me the various churches aren't even slightly responsible for that.

And like it or not there's a lot of examples in the good book of supposedly good people doing nasty shit in the name of your lord Yahweh.

For example:

"And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the Council of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

It's very hard to see where the various popes got the idea that the crusades were a good thing to do.

QUOTE
There has been a lot of travesty in the name of science too; it's not like this is something exclusive to religion. Extremism is bad regardless of what sort of extremism is going on.


When? The most you can say is that scientific knowledge has been used to commit travesties. Going back to when the cavemen noticed a correlation between bashing people's heads with rocks and people dying.

QUOTE
dude... that exact same argument can be the stated against evolution. It shows a horrible understanding of the science you seem to be arguing for.


Ehm no it can't. Evolution explains diversity pretty much perfectly. As a matter of fact the whole purpose of evolution is to explain diversity. I'm not entirely sure I could say the same for creationism.
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#1992
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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 6 2010, 07:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's not what happened when jesus died.

If only there were some book you could read that had all these answers you're too lazy to look for.

bad things have been done in the name of everything. The current church does not support everything it did through it's history. It actually denounces and condemns a good amount of it. There has been a lot of travesty in the name of science too; it's not like this is something exclusive to religion. Extremism is bad regardless of what sort of extremism is going on.

But Im not talking about extremism here. You guys always use this point to defend the institution from the crimes it has committed. Blame the extremist. You happen to miss out that it was common back in the middle ages to kill in the name of religion. Lucky for us, we outgrew that sort of behaviour through rational thought.
You cant take back the cruel things you did in the past.
Science is a medium. It doesnt account for the behaviour of human beings. Humans can be cruel to one another or just about anything if we wanted to. On the other hand, science doesnt make the decision to commit mass genocide. Humans make the decision.

QUOTE
dude... that exact same argument can be the stated against evolution. It shows a horrible understanding of the science you seem to be arguing for.

No dude.. the exact same argument cannot be stated against evolution. Evolution has facts, has been observed, has been tested and proven to work. The same sadly cant be said of Intelligent Design. Creationism is a pseudoscience. The argument for creationism is more than usually made by theology, not to be mistaken as science.

Edited by Riddle, 06 April 2010 - 06:57 AM.


#1993
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It's funny, Intelligent Design is dismissed so quickly. I still think Intelligent Design is a possibility. It is possible that an intelligent entity reached a level so high that they were able to code and created our DNA and plant it on Earth. This theory doesn't, however, allow for supernatural Gods, just beings beyond our own current abilities.
The problem is that this notion is not what most people refer to as Intelligent Design, rather, Intelligent Design is being used as an alias for Creationism so that less people oppose it. In this sense, that a God hand crafted each lifeform and place them on the Earth, Intelligent Design is completely false.
QUOTE (Plasmic Fury @ Jul 11 2010, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#1994
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QUOTE (Jaedong @ Apr 6 2010, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's funny, Intelligent Design is dismissed so quickly. I still think Intelligent Design is a possibility. It is possible that an intelligent entity reached a level so high that they were able to code and created our DNA and plant it on Earth. This theory doesn't, however, allow for supernatural Gods, just beings beyond our own current abilities.
The problem is that this notion is not what most people refer to as Intelligent Design, rather, Intelligent Design is being used as an alias for Creationism so that less people oppose it. In this sense, that a God hand crafted each lifeform and place them on the Earth, Intelligent Design is completely false.


from the best of my knowledge, Intelligent design = god crafted each lifeform and placed them on earth, and allowed them to adapt to their surroundings if needed, hence 'intelligent'. essentially it means that god allowed for micro-evolution, but not macro-evolution. simply put, they viciously ripped the limbs off the theory of evolution and sewed it on creationism and in doing so created a frankinstein mess of a 'theory'. it gives them a false sense of comfort because it fills in all the doubts that the scary scientists placed on the origins of species. its also conviniently irrefutable. scientifically, intelligent design is horse shit because its unfalsifiable... its not a scientific theory. you cant test the 'theory' of intelligent design.

#1995
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QUOTE (Myth @ Apr 6 2010, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
from the best of my knowledge, Intelligent design = god crafted each lifeform and placed them on earth, and allowed them to adapt to their surroundings if needed, hence 'intelligent'.

that's creationism not intelligent design.

QUOTE
But Im not talking about extremism here. You guys always use this point to defend the institution from the crimes it has committed. Blame the extremist. You happen to miss out that it was common back in the middle ages to kill in the name of religion. Lucky for us, we outgrew that sort of behaviour through rational thought.
You cant take back the cruel things you did in the past.

I didn't do any of those things. Should we say germans are evil because of the bad things germans in the past have done? Are italians all incestuous homosexuals because of the ancient romans?

QUOTE
No dude.. the exact same argument cannot be stated against evolution. Evolution has facts, has been observed, has been tested and proven to work. The same sadly cant be said of Intelligent Design. Creationism is a pseudoscience. The argument for creationism is more than usually made by theology, not to be mistaken as science.

wrong. The first homo sapien sapiens did not start popping up everywhere. They wouldn't have been the same species. There was a first homo sapien sapien. The diversity in our species happened well after that. Take an anthropology class. There were 3 or 4 competing homo-somethings after homo-erectus.

QUOTE
That's wonderful. What about the discrimination going on now because of Christianity? Like say the whole issue of homosexuality. You can't tell me the various churches aren't even slightly responsible for that.

There are homosexuals IN MY CHURCH. They are not discriminated against.

QUOTE
When? The most you can say is that scientific knowledge has been used to commit travesties. Going back to when the cavemen noticed a correlation between bashing people's heads with rocks and people dying.

The holocaust. The fact that a scientist who publicly believes that evolution might not be the only answer is black balled from the scientific community and can't get a job.
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QUOTE (Virus52 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#1996
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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 6 2010, 05:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There are homosexuals IN MY CHURCH. They are not discriminated against.


I wonder how easy it is for them to get married. Or perhaps you belong to one of the churches that does allow gay marriage but a lot of churches don't.

QUOTE
The holocaust.


Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favour by eliminating jews and sending humanity on the path to being totally aryan. That's not killing in the name of science or evolution. That's killing in the name of perceived racial superiority.

QUOTE
The fact that a scientist who publicly believes that evolution might not be the only answer is black balled from the scientific community and can't get a job.


Well if you're going to be a scientist who subscribes to pseudo-science don't be surprised when you become a joke.
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#1997
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QUOTE (Rob` @ Apr 6 2010, 01:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wonder how easy it is for them to get married. Or perhaps you belong to one of the churches that does allow gay marriage but a lot of churches don't.

They can't get married in the church, but they aren't though less of. They are there of their own free will and we do not judge them for that.

QUOTE
Hitler thought he was doing humanity a favour by eliminating jews and sending humanity on the path to being totally aryan. That's not killing in the name of science or evolution. That's killing in the name of perceived racial superiority.

I'd argue that his arguments towards racial superiority were more evolution based than sociality based. That said I would also like to add slavery in the US to the list.

QUOTE
Well if you're going to be a scientist who subscribes to pseudo-science don't be surprised when you become a joke.

how is being open to other possibilities pseudo-science? They don't denounce evolution, they just don't feel there's enough evidence to support it as the one and only possibility.

Accepting the possibility that what you think is right is actually wrong is absolutely necessary to proper science.
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QUOTE (Virus52 @ Mar 3 2008, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
ALL HAIL THE GREAT AND MIGHTY MOTH!

QUOTE (SN3S @ May 6 2008, 08:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No sensuality; this is all for fitness.

#1998
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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 6 2010, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They can't get married in the church, but they aren't though less of. They are there of their own free will and we do not judge them for that.


Denying them the right to marriage is discrimination.

QUOTE
I'd argue that his arguments towards racial superiority were more evolution based than sociality based.


How so?

QUOTE
That said I would also like to add slavery in the US to the list.


Uh whut?

QUOTE
how is being open to other possibilities pseudo-science? They don't denounce evolution, they just don't feel there's enough evidence to support it as the one and only possibility.


Because these other possibilities are nearly also ID which is pseudo science. I'm yet to hear of an actual scientific alternative.

QUOTE
Accepting the possibility that what you think is right is actually wrong is absolutely necessary to proper science.


There comes a point when the scientific community can pretty much state that a theory is definitely correct. Evolution has reached that point.
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#1999
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QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 7 2010, 02:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
that's creationism not intelligent design.


fair enough. then explain what the difference between intelligent design and creationism is to me.

QUOTE (way2lazy2care @ Apr 7 2010, 05:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how is being open to other possibilities pseudo-science? They don't denounce evolution, they just don't feel there's enough evidence to support it as the one and only possibility.

Accepting the possibility that what you think is right is actually wrong is absolutely necessary to proper science.


being another 'possibility' doesnt automatically make it scientific. ID or creationism is by definition, not a scientific theory. people need to get this through their heads.

#2000
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You guys are being too nice to waytoolazy. A scientist being "skeptical" of evolution is like being "skeptical" of the theory of aerodynamics. Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit.




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