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#21
Corey

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I just can't stand the people who think that the bible is justification for complete and utter radicalism. It pisses me off when people quote the bible for seemingly irrelevant reasons, like saying something that some random person said 2000 years ago justifies gays not getting married. As if our society hasn't evoled at all, as if it's still 1AD and people have the exact same values.

And it's not just Christians, most hardcore religous people oppose any kind of advance in society, which pisses me off to the point of exploding. In a world where we are clearly advancing, and things change every bloody day, they still stand rigid, as if nothing has moved.

Also Christianity is confusing as shit, they are monotheistic, yet you always hear them say Jesus is the son of God, then call Jesus God himself. Unless Jesus is his own father, that's wrong. Also, Jesus came back from the dead? You call sodomy unnatural while your Lord is a freaking zombie, SHAME!

That last line is unacceptable. Suspended. -Ximensions
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#22
Zoikon

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I have considered buddhism, as i don't belive in a god, but I kind of belive in a soul, that we aren't just flesh with a mind. And some theory i made my self is that if heaven were to be, like , and a new soul were born every day, the whole heaven would have to expand all the time, so it thought to my self maybe we are just the same soul all the time, just in the second we die, we in someway get's into som other embryo and the life goes on, but this was just something i pondered on. I don't actually know, i'm an agnostic in a way but atheist in another way cuz i don't belive in a god or something holy dude watching everything and such.
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#23
Vengeance

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Imo Corey that's almost flaming... I'm almost offended, and I know some people who would be. Never mind.


The Trinity is never made out to be simple, but I'm sure you've all heard the analogies (Water's three states, clover having three leaves yet being one leaf etc.) As far as I'm concerned, yes, it's a mystery, but it doesn't disprove Christianity. In any case, taking 'Son' literally, and talking about God as if he were a human is slightly pointless, as God's dimension is quite probably extremely different to ours.


As for Jesus being a zombie... I don't want to flame, but I don't think your opinion on what people raised from the dead are like is really relevant.

What's most annoying is:

QUOTE
And it's not just Christians, most hardcore religious people...


That's exactly what I was saying in my previous post. Christianity is *not* just a cop-out, half-religion that'll be walked all over!

In reply to an older post that I missed :

QUOTE
(I'm getting a headache just thinking of how everything could have been created from nothing)


Science doesn't solve that mystery any better than religion. In my opinion, religion actually solves it better. It makes more sense to me for God to have existed forever, not dependant on the universe, than to say the big bang sprung out from nowhere.

#24
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The main object of hatred towards religion stems from violence, war, abuse and people committing 'evil' things in the name of their religion.

Lots of people blame this on the religion itself. However, almost all religions can be twisted to support war and hatred. Quote something out of context and it will look like the religion supports that action. Take, for example, any of the large scale conflicts that happen in the Old Testament. What people fail to realise now is that if they had not have had those battles and won, the Jews would have perished or been slain by their enemies.

The main problem is not in the actual religion itself, but in two main things;
1. The translation of the Religion.
The leaders of the religion may put their own interpretation on what they have read because all holy scriptures are subject to interpretation. Also, combining with having it out of context you can get the scriptures to say what you want, which brings me on to my second point.

2. The faults of mankind.
Everyone knows we are not perfect. The problem is that people will always yearn for evil things, things which have been forbidden by the holy scriptures. Par exemplé; Having a war/Killing someone is wrong. Having a holy war/Killing someone who opposes your beliefs can be considered 'OK' if you use the scriptures and your own knowledge well. Mankind is the problem with religion, which is why wars happen. People say "Ban religion and there will be no more wars". Name a war in the last 50 years that has been caused by religion, not by oppressors, or for other reasons.

American Civil War - 'Freedom'
WWI - Kaiser Wilhelm
WWII - Hitler and the Nazi Party
Korean War - Opposing idealistic values
Vietnam War - Same as above
Gulf War - Saddam Hussein
Falklands War - Invasion
Afghani War - America + Britain needing their army to have training
Iraq War - Saddam Hussein
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#25
thevudd

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QUOTE (Skree/Vengeance @ Dec 5 2006, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In writing this book, he found overwhelming evidence for Christianity, and converted. He still published the book though icon_smile.gif The book is Who Moved The Stone?, by Frank Morrison.

Sound's interesting. I just ordered the book on Amazon, so will get back to you when I'm done. icon_smile.gif

#26
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Speaking of killing people because of religion;
Theres a little paradox it self when the bible says that you shall not kill, but is it okay to kill if they are non'beliver or any other reason they would have to kill 'em.
The Islamic holy book (forgot how to write the original name in english, so lets say The islamic holy book icon_lol.gif)
Any way... The islamic holy book also says that you shall not kill, but if you die like a martyr you'll get 71 virgins.... like wtf.
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#27
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Haha, they should be paying me icon_smile.gif Let me know what you think, definitely.

QUOTE
Speaking of killing people because of religion;
Theres a little paradox it self when the bible says that you shall not kill, but is it okay to kill if they are non'beliver or any other reason they would have to kill 'em.
The Islamic holy book (forgot how to write the original name in english, so lets say The islamic holy book icon_lol.gif)
Any way... The islamic holy book also says that you shall not kill, but if you die like a martyr you'll get 71 virgins.... like wtf.


The kill is can be translated as 'murder', so that gives a different meaning on the issue. The 'killing the non-believers' happened in the Old Testament, so isn't necessarily entirely congruent with Christian theology. It was also mainly done to set up Israel as a nation, so perhaps was slightly special circumstances.

#28
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QUOTE (Zoikon @ Dec 6 2006, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Speaking of killing people because of religion;
Theres a little paradox it self when the bible says that you shall not kill, but is it okay to kill if they are non'beliver or any other reason they would have to kill 'em.
The Islamic holy book (forgot how to write the original name in english, so lets say The islamic holy book icon_lol.gif)
Any way... The islamic holy book also says that you shall not kill, but if you die like a martyr you'll get 71 virgins.... like wtf.


It is a little odd. But as VulgaritySocks once said, it's best not to find hippocrisy in anything, because EVERYTHING is hippocritical to a point. (Not exact quote from VS)

But basically I think that they see it as being a difference between "killing" and "purging". Purging sounds a bit satanic because you hear the term a lot from maniacle characters on video games, but that is not the point I'm trying to get across...

I'm guessing if they see someone who is irreperably a sinner, they should be sent to Hell and not be able to bring others down around them, because they've bought their place in Hell... I don't really know, hopefully you see what I'm getting at... Sort of like a person who's too far gone that they've become a "lost cause" so-to-speak.

But there are obviously an uncountable amount of variations and scenarios to take into consideration for something like this... If you were to give a definite example of what you see being hippocritical we might be able to discuss it further.
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#29
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QUOTE (RikthePox @ Dec 5 2006, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes; political correctness regarding religion is also a good topic to discuss here.


Hmm... you know, I'd say with most arguements people could have in political correctness gets involved then one side of the arguement will automatically win. Political correctness has a natural bias which sways only one way in an arguement... so it should propably be ignored (sensibly) if we're going to actually come to any conclusions at all here...

But yeah... religion... I respect anyone who can actually believe in it, and yet at the same time feel slightly angry. It's like they're stubbornly ignoring thousands of years of growth and discoveries in the human race. I mean, sure, believe that's how it all began, but when it begins to hamper the growth of human-kind to the degree where a discovery that could save billions is stopped because it may offend millions religion is slowing human beings as a race down. As Corey said, religion needs to accept the fact that we're no longer in the 16th century, and scientific discoveries are being made, not in spite of religion, but to assist mankind. If religion held true to it's own doctrines (and I'm saying religion in general here, they all have a "be beneficial to mankind clause) they'd let the scientists do what they want in hopes it would save lives...
I think the "falsenes" of religion shows itself in two ways. First off, it attempts to halt science, not because science is really being anti-religion, but because science is going to disproove religion, given time. I would guess that science is going to discover how everything was made, science is going to discover why the Bible (for one example) was written like it was, hell, given time, science will defeat religion at every angle. Devestating as this may be (don't get me wrong, I think religion really isn't always a bad thing, but as a whole, has it really helped us at all?), perhaps it will allow the human race to finally get on with life... without religion a lot of conflicts would disappear.
Also, religion is somewhat strange in it's views... I can't really explain this in a really sensible manner (it's a philosophy I picked up from Nietzsche a long time ago, thought about for a long time, and decided was pretty sensible) but religion's major drawback is that a man, when submitting to religion, is admitting that although made in a God's image, he needs religion to be a good human being. This is religion's major downfall. It gives off the impression that a person can't just be a good person. They need a moral fencepost to stand on. Which is entirely wrong.

Anyway, that may be a little rambling, but there are my thoughts on religion and it's downfalls... I really think that it can be a good thing, but honestly I would say the world would be a better place without it. I think we're kinda passed the point where we question it's validity too... although I'm propably wrong here... I once read about a Native tribe who couldn't see an English navy ship on open waters, even though it was massive and right in front of them, and even though there was nothing obstructing their view of it. Their brains just couldn't process that such a thing existed... maybe something similar is going on here.

#30
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QUOTE (Zoikon @ Dec 5 2006, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Speaking of killing people because of religion;
Theres a little paradox it self when the bible says that you shall not kill, but is it okay to kill if they are non'beliver or any other reason they would have to kill 'em.
The Islamic holy book (forgot how to write the original name in english, so lets say The islamic holy book icon_lol.gif)
Any way... The islamic holy book also says that you shall not kill, but if you die like a martyr you'll get 71 virgins.... like wtf.

TBH these are EXTREEMIST, I mean Muslims are not the only ones with "relgious warriors" Look back about 30 years or so in Ireland with the IRA, back then they were also facing off in a "religous" war with the Protestants (also thats there flag green is chathloic orang protestant white for teh peace between the two)

Well untill they allied together, and attacked the smarter target which was Northern Ireland, which is now what the IRA is about, they are fighting for a United Ireland, now yes there still are some cases chathloics fighting protestants, but hell that can go all the way back to the 1300s during the Rensacons in the Holy Roman Empire.
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#31
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QUOTE
I think the "falsenes" of religion shows itself in two ways. First off, it attempts to halt science, not because science is really being anti-religion, but because science is going to disproove religion, given time. I would guess that science is going to discover how everything was made, science is going to discover why the Bible (for one example) was written like it was, hell, given time, science will defeat religion at every angle. Devestating as this may be (don't get me wrong, I think religion really isn't always a bad thing, but as a whole, has it really helped us at all?), perhaps it will allow the human race to finally get on with life... without religion a lot of conflicts would disappear.


I'm sorry, but that just isn't backed up. You can't just guess that science is going to defeat religion. Assuming science will eventually discover everything is a massive assumption, and I'm sure most leading-edge scientists wouldn't back up a statement like that. Also, you say that religion attempts to halt science. Historic religion, perhaps, but maybe that was because it saw science as a threat, as something new and they simply attacked it without proper thought. They were, after all, human. Modern religion does nothing of the sort...

#32
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QUOTE (Skree/Vengeance @ Dec 5 2006, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm sorry, but that just isn't backed up. You can't just guess that science is going to defeat religion. Assuming science will eventually discover everything is a massive assumption, and I'm sure most leading-edge scientists wouldn't back up a statement like that. Also, you say that religion attempts to halt science. Historic religion, perhaps, but maybe that was because it saw science as a threat, as something new and they simply attacked it without proper thought. They were, after all, human. Modern religion does nothing of the sort...


Hmm... to be honest I was basing my opinion off of the actions of modern day religion. Not the "orginized" part of religion mind you, more the people who practice it. Not in general, saying everyone who was religious was helting progress would be completely incorrect, and ignorant. I'm just saying there are certain "stereotypes" which play the politically incorrect card to stop research being done where it really, really needs to be done (stem cell research anyone?).
Hmmm.. maybe I over-stated slightly, but I truly believe that given time "science" will prove almost everything we want to know. Ironic in that it will be our new "religious source" in doing so, perhaps getting replaced by something else over time. And man, judging by numbers, science has "defeated" religion. I'd say these two topics are way to broad to clump like that though, you could propably say religion is a science and vice versa if you really wanted to...

#33
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QUOTE (piggyspizza @ Dec 5 2006, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
TBH these are EXTREEMIST, I mean Muslims are not the only ones with "relgious warriors" Look back about 30 years or so in Ireland with the IRA, back then they were also facing off in a "religous" war with the Protestants (also thats there flag green is chathloic orang protestant white for teh peace between the two)

Well untill they allied together, and attacked the smarter target which was Northern Ireland, which is now what the IRA is about, they are fighting for a United Ireland, now yes there still are some cases chathloics fighting protestants, but hell that can go all the way back to the 1300s during the Rensacons in the Holy Roman Empire.

Of course, i just mentioned some of many cases, but that wasn't my point.
What i ment, people say they are Christian Catholic, Christian etc or Muslim for that mather.... but they always bend the "rules" to their benefit(not always though), so like the rules aren't really rules, more just guidelines. Because people choose to follow them or not.
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#34
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Heh, it's funny, these threads always remind me of Donnie Darko (in movies studies we found a lot of things where they had the idea of Science Vs. Religion).

I'm with Vulg on this, but also tilting with Skree. Simply because I can't really find many parts of christianity itself (I've not really looked into other religions) feasible, but science answers many questions for me... It's a bit naive yes but still. Then there are the things that science just cannot seem to explain, but religion has a reason for.

It's a tough cookie to bite... Just when I read the bible as research for Vial Of Janus, there were a lot of passages at the beginning stating that the individuals of the story lived for near 900 years or even more... I can't see how that is possible at all. Science can't seem to back up any evidence to the universes creation (they say the big bang yes, but that happened when two atoms collided with each other... what made the atoms? How long were they there for? When did time begin etc etc)... The main thing that sticks out to me is finding the bones and fossils from prehistoric times and creatures. A friend of mine was saying he was talking about this sort of things before, he is not religious but the other party was.

He asked about the dinosaurs and an explanation as to why their remains were there, and the other said that they were "put there by god to test us". While many of you might see this as true, I just can't really accept that no matter how hard I try.

Science is winning for me, and while Skree says that religion is no longer about trying to exclude science as an opponent in gathering believers, it's hard to shake the feeling that the same motive still stands subliminaly in its campaign.
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#35
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QUOTE (VulgaritySocks @ Dec 5 2006, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
stubbornly ignoring thousands of years of growth and discoveries in the human race

Why? Many of the top scientists are either religious or support religious orientation. There is no evidence to show that religion opposes scientific advances. Some religions do not believe in medicine, but these are restricted to very few.

QUOTE (VulgaritySocks @ Dec 5 2006, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
when it begins to hamper the growth of human-kind to the degree where a discovery that could save billions is stopped because it may offend millions religion is slowing human beings as a race down


If you are talking about stem cell research, it is being slowed because of dangers it could pose due to our low knowledge of viral infections and diseases. Something such as killer bees are a result of humans 'playing god' and stem cell research could pose problems to the human race as a whole. So this is conducted in very close quarters with safety measures.

QUOTE (VulgaritySocks @ Dec 5 2006, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the "falsenes" of religion shows itself in two ways. First off, it attempts to halt science, not because science is really being anti-religion, but because science is going to disproove religion, given time[sic]


Again, no evidence to support this. Also science will never be able to prove the creation of the world because there is only circumstantial evidence to support the theories. As no one was alive then, we shall never know for sure.

QUOTE (VulgaritySocks @ Dec 5 2006, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
religion's major drawback is that a man, when submitting to religion, is admitting that although made in a God's image, he needs religion to be a good human being. This is religion's major downfall. It gives off the impression that a person can't just be a good person. They need a moral fencepost to stand on. Which is entirely wrong.
I'm pretty sure that's just a jibe at Christianity, and is also unfounded. If you want to argue with me about that, PM me.

QUOTE (VulgaritySocks @ Dec 5 2006, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would say the world would be a better place without it.


Imagine how much people would oppose that. Over 60% of the world are in just three main religions. It's never going to happen.
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#36
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QUOTE (Zoikon @ Dec 5 2006, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course, i just mentioned some of many cases, but that wasn't my point.
What i ment, people say they are Christian Catholic, Christian etc or Muslim for that mather.... but they always bend the "rules" to their benefit(not always though), so like the rules aren't really rules, more just guidelines. Because people choose to follow them or not.

No one ever said the were rules, now ask your self this. If a man kills another man, but the killer believes in God is he still going to Heaven? Simply.. Yes, no sin is worse then another a sin is a sin. I myself consider the Comandments or what ever your relgion uses as "guide lines" they are guide lines just to live a better spiritual life.
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#37
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QUOTE (BlightedArt @ Dec 5 2006, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's a tough cookie to bite... Just when I read the bible as research for Vial Of Janus, there were a lot of passages at the beginning stating that the individuals of the story lived for near 900 years or even more...

It's not exactly normal, but it's not impossible. People's average life span could have followed a curve, going from very high, to lower, to a minimum, and now it's increasing, with advances in medicine. Changes in the human genome could have potentially meant humans live much shorter lives now than they used to. I can't back it up, but as far as I know, you can't disprove it either

QUOTE (BlightedArt @ Dec 5 2006, 10:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He asked about the dinosaurs and an explanation as to why their remains were there, and the other said that they were "put there by god to test us". While many of you might see this as true, I just can't really accept that no matter how hard I try.


I personally don't accept this, it seems kind of stupid, and I don't necessarily believe there's a contradiction in dinosaurs, and a several million-billion (w/e icon_razz.gif) year old earth. The creation story could be a metaphor, just like a lot of other parts of the Bible. Check out Song of Songs/Solomon for a prime example of a metaphor icon_smile.gif (Bet you never though *that* was in the Bible icon_wink.gif )

#38
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QUOTE (piggyspizza @ Dec 6 2006, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No one ever said the were rules, now ask your self this. If a man kills another man, but the killer believes in God is he still going to Heaven? Simply.. Yes, no sin is worse then another a sin is a sin. I myself consider the Comandments or what ever your relgion uses as "guide lines" they are guide lines just to live a better spiritual life.


But isn't Pride considered the deadliest of the seven sins, because it can spark the initiative to do any of the 7 since overall?
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#39
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QUOTE (BlightedArt @ Dec 5 2006, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He asked about the dinosaurs and an explanation as to why their remains were there, and the other said that they were "put there by god to test us". While many of you might see this as true, I just can't really accept that no matter how hard I try.



Think of it this way God is like the leader of a government... God/Leader is the kind of leader who wants his people to love him, instead of some Leaders using Fear. Now yes Fear is more productive, but if you use Love you will find who truely belives in you. God does not want to make us believe in him with Fear, but love.
I mean imagine if Noah Ark was found (hell some say it's in the Himalayas, but it's in the Chinese Himalays) That would almsot immediatly change 99% of people mind on which relgion is right do to FEAR, but whats the point of God putting us on the Earth if we are to belive in a relgion due to Fear since if we don't we go to hell. I myself take Earth as a HUGE test God has given us to take, and it's a simple pass/fail (phew).

QUOTE (BlightedArt @ Dec 5 2006, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But isn't Pride considered the deadliest of the seven sins, because it can spark the initiative to do any of the 7 since overall?


You could consider it that way, but really it's your own oppion, as far as I know No where in the Bible does it say it is the deadlest (unless i am mistaken) Man probably considers it the deadlist of all sins since it can couse all sins to be commited (as you said). If you have enough self controll though you should not linger from God, or sin in that manner
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VulgaritySocks

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QUOTE (Iacto/Sophos @ Dec 5 2006, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why? Many of the top scientists are either religious or support religious orientation. There is no evidence to show that religion opposes scientific advances. Some religions do not believe in medicine, but these are restricted to very few.
If you are talking about stem cell research, it is being slowed because of dangers it could pose due to our low knowledge of viral infections and diseases. Something such as killer bees are a result of humans 'playing god' and stem cell research could pose problems to the human race as a whole. So this is conducted in very close quarters with safety measures.
Again, no evidence to support this. Also science will never be able to prove the creation of the world because there is only circumstantial evidence to support the theories. As no one was alive then, we shall never know for sure.

I'm pretty sure that's just a jibe at Christianity, and is also unfounded. If you want to argue with me about that, PM me.
Imagine how much people would oppose that. Over 60% of the world are in just three main religions. It's never going to happen.


Righto... fair arguements made, but it would be nice if everytime someone said, "there is no evidence to support this" they gave evidence to back it up. Would be nice you know... because I certainly can't find any.

But anyway, Your first little arguement has kind of a contradictive nature, so I'll move on to the second. You say that "killer bees" could result from scientific tampering. I'm saying that so could a cure for cancer. And killer bees versus a cure for cancer... I'm sure people would be willing to make sacrifices. So what's stopping them?
And about your point about "no one being around" to witness the beginning of the world... well that kind of settles the arguement doesn't it? No one was really around to "witness" many of the events in the bible, and that's propably why some people are too suspicious to bow down to it's every word.
And for the record, I'm not taking a jibe at Christianity, I respect people who are religious. I just can't understand their "thought selective" nature.

Hmm... and about your last point, how many of that percentage actually believe what they're being shown? I know a ton of "religious" people who don't really believe at all what they're being told, and merely practice the religion because that's how their family brought them up. If religion is to be effective, it can't really be treated as a tradition...




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