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#861
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QUOTE (HypnoticMoose @ Aug 3 2007, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not trying to find answer's to ancient questions, it's arbitrarily deciding what the answer is and denying all other answers.


Only some religions do this.


#862
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QUOTE (Pawnator @ Aug 3 2007, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Only some religions do this.

what are some that don't?
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#863
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QUOTE (Count_Pwntaculr @ Aug 3 2007, 10:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not actually individual at all icon_smile.gif. Society in general, as far as the statistics go today, is better off without God.

Atheists are on average smarter and nicer. Atheist countries have higher levels of education and lower levels of crime. The list is almost endless.


I live in a primarily Atheist country. Our people is generally depressed, and our people are generally way less nicer than most religious countries I've been to.
Also, the only truly Atheist country was the former Albania:

Wikipedia:

QUOTE
State atheism is the official rejection of religion in all forms by a government in favor of atheism. The only country to officially ban religion was Albania under Enver Hoxha; however, numerous governments such as China and Mongolia throughout history have actively (and, sometimes, violently) opposed religion, persecuting religious institutions, leaders and believers, to the same extent as Hoxha's Albania. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[1] where the only way to get ahead in society was to proclaim atheism and stay away from churches; this attitude was especially militant under Stalin.[2][3][4] The Soviet Union imposed atheism over wide areas of its influence, including places like central Asia.[5]


#864
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QUOTE (HypnoticMoose @ Aug 4 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's not trying to find answer's to ancient questions, it's arbitrarily deciding what the answer is and denying all other answers.

athiesm is based upon not knowing what the answer is, but knowing that the idea of an almighty intelligent deity is a ridiculous concept

Ignorance is not caring what the answers are.
I'm sorry, but how can you not care?
So yeah, I don't believe that there is an almighty figure that is behind the conspiracy of life, but I do want to know what IS behind it.

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#865
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QUOTE (Hrugnir @ Aug 4 2007, 12:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I live in a primarily Atheist country. Our people is generally depressed, and our people are generally way less nicer than most religious countries I've been to.
Also, the only truly Atheist country was the former Albania:

Wikipedia:

There are studies that show that it's due to lack of light + cold, but I don't remember where I've seen them.

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#866
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QUOTE (Hrugnir @ Aug 3 2007, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I live in a primarily Atheist country. Our people is generally depressed, and our people are generally way less nicer than most religious countries I've been to.
Also, the only truly Atheist country was the former Albania:

Wikipedia:

yeah, saying that athiests are nicer than other people is ridiculous, I'm athiest, and I'm crass, cynical, sarcastic, and a generally angry person.

QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ignorance is not caring what the answers are.
I'm sorry, but how can you not care?
So yeah, I don't believe that there is an almighty figure that is behind the conspiracy of life, but I do want to know what IS behind it.

ever thought that life is meaningless, and it's a question that we can never answer?
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#867
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QUOTE (HypnoticMoose @ Aug 3 2007, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
what are some that don't?


Daoism, the New Testament (original form, of course,) Gnostica, Unitarian Universalism, Koreshanity (to some extent,) Zen/Buddhism, Dvaita, Native American Church, countless native mythologies.


#868
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QUOTE (HypnoticMoose @ Aug 4 2007, 12:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yeah, saying that athiests are nicer than other people is ridiculous, I'm athiest, and I'm crass, cynical, sarcastic, and a generally angry person.
ever thought that life is meaningless, and it's a question that we can never answer?

Yeah, I thought about it.
Scary.
Because... Well, since I don't believe in afterlife, this is all I've got - so why not spending my life in a meaningful way? Yeah, I do know that not all people WANT to know how they got here (And no, I'm not speaking biologically...), but to me... It's just like a huge riddle that I might not be able to figure, but I can at least try.

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#869
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QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 05:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I thought about it.
Scary.
Because... Well, since I don't believe in afterlife, this is all I've got - so why not spending my life in a meaningful way? Yeah, I do know that not all people WANT to know how they got here (And no, I'm not speaking biologically...), but to me... It's just like a huge riddle that I might not be able to figure, but I can at least try.

technically, since this is all we got, everything we do is meaningful, every action has an impact on something, and each impact causes another impact, each event is meaningful, even the most mundane of actions, it's synchronicity. (which is a philosophy which is full of shit, but don't think about humanity in comparison to the universe, or even how we've been around for about 50,000 years and the dinosaurs were around for 4600 times longer and were only wiped out by an extraterrestrial coincidence)
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#870
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QUOTE (HypnoticMoose @ Aug 3 2007, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
only whiped out by an extraterrestrial coincidence)




#871
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QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is SO disrespectful!
How can you say that religion is founded upon ignorance? Yeah, some religious people are ignorant, but it's only a part of a group, and tbh there are ignorant atheists as well, and I think that there are few posts in this thread that prove it.

Religion is trying to find answers to questions that are milleniums old. How is that ignorance?!


Why are you making out that religion deserves respect? Undeserved respect I might add. Religion is ignorance. Bottom line. It's all based on superstition and assumption. I'm no athiest, I guess I'm more agnostic, but leaning towards athiesm.

And what questions that are milleniums old?


#872
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QUOTE (Pawnator @ Aug 3 2007, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Daoism, the New Testament (original form, of course,) Gnostica, Unitarian Universalism, Koreshanity (to some extent,) Zen/Buddhism, Dvaita, Native American Church, countless native mythologies.


Buddhism is a Philosophy, not a religion, religions try to explain the environment, Buddhism tries to explain the self. Same with Daosim.

There were North American native tribes that disagreed with Christianity, they captured several missionaries and scalped them.

Christianity is responsible for countless numbers of people killed and/or tortured over it's 2000 year reign over the world, Jesus was even just a Jewish Carpenter who believed in giving people another chance, and denounce your roman gods.

This also goes for every protestant religion that has strainted from christianity, including the Unitarian Universalism.

and Koreshanity is completely ridiculous, I mean, absolutely ridiculous, it's like a bad Sci-fi novel!
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#873
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QUOTE (Count_Pwntaculr @ Aug 3 2007, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I believe in like, some fat ol' axe following me around, I better not blink 5 times in a minute of else it will chop me up good like. Now, I have no proof either way (the axe is invisable and undecteable, apart from in the minds of the faithful i.e. me) but it's better to believe in teh great axe just in case, yknow. If it doens't chop me before the end of my life then like, I have infinte pleasure or w/e. Yeassss.

You don't need evidence against my axe to know its utter bullshit do you? Lack of disproof does balance out the lack of proof. Your the one making the claim, the onus of proof is on you.


I know it's not directly relevant to the debate at hand, but your belief in your axe is extremely easily tested. Blink 6 times in a row, but yeah, anyway. I won't use that as the basis for my argument, because we both know that's totally irrelevant icon_smile.gif

I'm not saying religion doesn't make sense, logically, but I am saying it can't ever be proved 100%. Faith *has* to be a part of the Christian, and probably most other (although I'm less educated), religions. If the Christian religion was ever proved to be true, I'd instantly try and disprove it's existence, haha, because without faith, the freely chosen service of God is totally non-existant, and the religion would lose a major aspect as far as I'm concerned. It's illogical to think that God would allow his existance to be proved - and as gay as that sounds as a debate point, it makes sense. It's not proof or evidence or anything close to it - don't get me wrong - but it serves as a reason to expect not to find any evidence, from my point of view. The fact that faith is involved inherently in religion is making debating it pretty difficult - because I'll never be able to give you concrete, 100% confirmed evidence. That doesn't bother me, but I have a feeling it might bother you XD

As far as I'm concerned, nobody really came up with an adequate explanation of the disappearance of Jesus' body from the tomb, so there's some evidence to start us off. Not concrete evidence, but I wouldn't expect it to be icon_smile.gif
QUOTE
Of course, demanding proof is simply "one dimensional". There are other forms of "proof" bar the scienctific. Of course, I can't explain them to you because that would require the use of scientific logic, which doesn't work for my mystical faith and proof. I can't really explain them to myself, because, y'know, for me to understand these unknown proofs my brain would have to work in another way to everyone elses. Oh wait, we don't even know that everyones brain works in a different way, because logic doesn't work for detecting "other ways"!


I don't think anyone here is arguing like that...

I don't like how you've said scientific logic though - as far as I'm concerned, science is a method we use to gather evidence from the evidence, suggest theories. Logic can be argued without any evidence whatsoever. I think religion stands up to logical arguments, but science isn't useful when discussing theology, for the most part. I mean, for example, the science of the beginning and end of the universe is relevant, but looking for God with a telescope or whatever isn't going to be useful. icon_smile.gif Which brings us on to your next point...

QUOTE
Your arguments as follows are simply wrong man!

God is beyond science because I said so.
Do not attempt to discredit that God is beyond science/logic because God is beyond science so cannot be discredited by science/logic.

They are simply circular. You make an assumption based on literally, nothing "God is beyond science cause, well, in the bible it says he is". and then use that unfounded assumption to justify every claim you make; "Do not attempt to use logic when concerned with God! God is beyond logic!". You even try and back up your orginal assumption (God is beyond science) with itself; "Do not try and prove God is beyond science or not because God is beyond science so you cannot prove it".


It's not based on the Bible or doctrine - it's based on logic. If you've made the leap of faith and decided to believe in God, then you've made the decision to believe in a God which is beyond the physical realm. It's an assumption, yes, that he's not in the physical realm, and that, indeed, there's another realm in which he lives icon_smile.gif But religion is based upon assumptions... assumptions with some good evidence, but not conclusive evidence...

QUOTE
Its deceptivily circular. You might occasionally throw in the odd bone to Atheists in the form of supposed "evidence for God" - Although never quite stepping out of the saftely barrier that is the circular "God is beyond logic/science/thinking/feeling/everything you can come up with to argue about him with".


I disagree. I've been pretty frank with you in this post, and there's no motivation for me to stand up against a crushing argument from your side and believe in a God despite the evidence. I have to weigh everything up, because I don't want to believe in a God that doesn't exist icon_wink.gif Its hard to argue with it, because so much of it is personal. Not just in the potential fake, mental 'personal' sense, but it relies on things I've seen, but you won't believe that I've seen icon_smile.gif For example : speaking to John Berry, a minister of a church near mine, who had been visiting Zambia (iirc, but unimportant for the story), where he visited a church which met on a mountain. Hundreds of people were coming from all around, from all the nearby villages, it sounds impressive to be honest, being on top of this mountain and seeing all these tiny dots flocking towards you from miles away. Irrelevant, but cool. Anyway, half way through the service, some guy fell down. Some of the congregation who were doctors confirmed the guy didn't have a pulse and wasn't breathing. The elders of the church gathered round, laid on hands and the guy got up, and the service continued, after thanking God, but no big thing was made of it. It turns out it's not a completely uncommon occurence at this church - I don't have figures for you - but apparently the elders really weren't phased.

Now, we've got a few choices to explain this. The incompetence of the doctors/wanting to not feel a pulse (although you would have thought they would prefer the guy to be alive before they prayed for him), my friend the minister is making it up, or it's a miracle. I'm sure most will jump for the first option, a few for the second, and the theists obviously for the third. I would say it's possible, but unlikely, that the doctors at this church couldn't take pulses correctly, and the fact it had happened before could either mean that the doctors were being repeatedly crap, or that miracles were repeatedly taking place. That, on its own, won't convert anyone, but I trust the guy who told it to me, and I don't think it's illogical to believe the doctors were able to take pulses. "It's more likely than a God existing" is the obvious reply, but I'm not sure it is, when you stack up the other evidence.

At a Christian festival I went to two years back, a girl who had suffered from a serious allergy to a protein found in many things, including types of rubber and all fruit, was prayed for, and claimed to feel a "weight lifting from her", and was so confident, she went up and ate an apple on the stage where the band were. (Medical records etc. were confirmed - she wasn't making it up) Two choices : miracle, or her belief was so strong that her body did some unexplained thing and healed itself (as an afterthought, I might be lying XD not an option for me though icon_smile.gif ). I could go on, but these all mount up. Explainable miracles - but every time one happens, one explanation changes, whereas the other is different each time (if you get what I mean). So looking at it mathematically, the chance that God exists has a figure, I don't know what it is, some finite figure. Let's say you're 99% sure that God doesn't exist - so 0.01 is the chance God exists. (It's arbitrary, please don't assault me for it being too high _) Now, let's say that the doctors being incompetent repeatedly has a chance of 0.5, and that the chance of the girl's body healing itself is 0.2. It's therefore a 0.1 chance that the girl's body healed itself and the doctors were incompetent, as they are independent events. There are countless miracles witnessed, but I would say that to explain away all the miracles that I've witnessed would require incredible chance - and that's just counting the ones I've personally witnessed. Do you sort of see what I mean? I'm a mathematician, so that's why it's written like this, but yeah. (Note to non mathematicians, 0 is impossible, 1 is certain and 0.5 is 50/50 chance icon_smile.gif )

Anyway, I'll stop there. I have a feeling this post is probably very big icon_sad.gif

#874
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QUOTE (Pawnator @ Aug 3 2007, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks, I didn't notice my typo
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#875
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QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ignorance is not caring what the answers are.
I'm sorry, but how can you not care?
So yeah, I don't believe that there is an almighty figure that is behind the conspiracy of life, but I do want to know what IS behind it.


And you think religion can answer that?


#876
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QUOTE (666:H3ath3n @ Aug 4 2007, 12:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why are you making out that religion deserves respect? Undeserved respect I might add. Religion is ignorance. Bottom line. It's all based on superstition and assumption. I'm no athiest, I guess I'm more agnostic, but leaning towards athiesm.

Undeserved respect?!
Dude, everyone deserves respect.
The fact that you are acting as if they don't, is quite scary. tbh.

Religion is in no way ignorance imo, but maybe some people inside religions are.
Not everyone. Not everyone.

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#877
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QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 04:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Undeserved respect?!
Dude, everyone deserves respect.
The fact that you are acting as if they don't, is quite scary. tbh.

Religion is in no way ignorance imo, but maybe some people inside religions are.
Not everyone. Not everyone.


Not true. Questioning religion is seen as disrespectful. Why?

It is ignorance, and to some extent, stupidity. Mainstream religion anyway, dispelling fact for fiction. Ridiculous.


#878
ya_ba

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QUOTE (666:H3ath3n @ Aug 4 2007, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And you think religion can answer that?

No, that's why I don't follow any religion.

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#879
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QUOTE (ya_ba @ Aug 3 2007, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, that's why I don't follow any religion.


Right...why are you arguing for religion then?


#880
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QUOTE (666:H3ath3n @ Aug 4 2007, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not true. Questioning religion is seen as disrespectful. Why?

It is ignorance, and to some extent, stupidity. Mainstream religion anyway, dispelling fact for fiction. Ridiculous.

It's not questioning religion that is disrespectful.

Dude.
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