231 replies to this topic

[spiri7ussancti]

With CoD the health regen is too fast for them to need to hide in a corner to regen health. They just have to crouch into cover for about a second, which yes may give you a chance to throw a grenade BUT grenades in that game do so much damage you don't even need that chance.
In other words, no you're making shit up.

full metal jackets

[CakeCom]

full metal jackets

Yes they're somewhat relevant to the conversation.

[spiri7ussancti]

Yes they're somewhat relevant to the conversation.

actually they're one of the factors you left out in your last statement.

also there are a lot of factors to pay attention to in CoD that weren't mentioned because he used halo as an example not CoD. Two different games so you can't take the exact set of criteria and say, nope that doesn't work in this other game so you must have made it all up.

but i'm ganna go back to lurking because way2 is way better at putting things into a readable context than i am.

[CakeCom]

Halo uses a regenerating shield system with health (Halo Reach anyway)

Call of duty just uses regenerating health.

If we're talking about a shield system with hp that works regularly, it's obvious that it will work in competitive play therefore he shouldn't even bother.

If we're talking about a health system that allows you to constantly just keep running and gunning at people, then no I'd like to see a proper argument for it. FMJs dont allow you do simply duck down (sometimes) but people don't equip FMJs, even in competitive play it's pretty rare to see them (and they aren't even in Black Ops, currently the biggest game in the series). Anyways, the point is the hp regenerates too quickly in CoD for it to matter.

[spiri7ussancti]

Halo uses a regenerating shield system with health (Halo Reach anyway)

Wrote up a giant argument then decided a different tactic is in order.

Why is this statement important. I know you favor the recharging shield with some health, but why.

Explain it to me.

[otaku_4_life]

I think regenerating shields are acceptable if done right, depending on the type of game. It makes it so the game almost gives you "extra lives". Your health gets whittled down every time you take damage for an extended period of time, and can never come back. The shields are just kind of a buffer. It also makes logical sense (it's sci-fi, shields should be able to regenerate), while regenerating health usually doesn't.

[CakeCom]

I think regenerating shields are acceptable if done right, depending on the type of game. It makes it so the game almost gives you "extra lives". Your health gets whittled down every time you take damage for an extended period of time, and can never come back. The shields are just kind of a buffer. It also makes logical sense (it's sci-fi, shields should be able to regenerate), while regenerating health usually doesn't.

Exactly.

But technically the health in halo can be brought back, you just have to hold the areas with the health packs (actually making it a requirement to hold down that area, rather than simply "Hold area with objective" or "Hold area to spawn camp").

[way2lazy2care]

Call of duty just uses regenerating health.

If we're talking about a shield system with hp that works regularly, it's obvious that it will work in competitive play therefore he shouldn't even bother.

If we're talking about a health system that allows you to constantly just keep running and gunning at people, then no I'd like to see a proper argument for it. FMJs dont allow you do simply duck down (sometimes) but people don't equip FMJs, even in competitive play it's pretty rare to see them (and they aren't even in Black Ops, currently the biggest game in the series). Anyways, the point is the hp regenerates too quickly in CoD for it to matter.

CoD health recharge timer is 5 seconds, Halo's starts at 4.5 seconds and fully recharges by 6 seconds. You also kill people a lot faster in CoD. There are definitely perks that break the competitiveness of the game, but pro leagues usually remove unbalanced perks/weapons for competitive play for exactly that reason.

edit:

I think regenerating shields are acceptable if done right, depending on the type of game. It makes it so the game almost gives you "extra lives". Your health gets whittled down every time you take damage for an extended period of time, and can never come back. The shields are just kind of a buffer. It also makes logical sense (it's sci-fi, shields should be able to regenerate), while regenerating health usually doesn't.

In halo 2 the health regeneration is actually explained in the lore.

Exactly.

But technically the health in halo can be brought back, you just have to hold the areas with the health packs (actually making it a requirement to hold down that area, rather than simply "Hold area with objective" or "Hold area to spawn camp").

With 4v4 you don't really need to hold anywhere anyway. The maps are large enough that it's pretty simple for me to just run away from your team long enough to get a health or slightly alter my path. Occasionally you can use them during combat to give you an edge, but I find if you are trying to concentrate on grabbing a health pack in the middle of a firefight your split attention will get you killed anyway; and I think when you pick up a health pack you can't shoot, so it would be instantly offset by all the extra damage you take while dishing out no damage.

All it does is allow players to keep playing actively. If you split up to cover every health pack on the map, my team will just mob one of you and take that health pack anyway. If you all cover one health pack, I'm just not going to go for that health pack; instead opting to spend more time running away and back. That is not more tactical. It is just slower, decreasing the total amount of meaningful interactions that happen through the course of a match.

The difference between no respawn round based games and respawn based kill limit games also needs to be noted. If you respawn, then you either need health packs (not any more tactical than just adding a different more dynamic pick up item somewhere on the map with regenerating health) or you force people into situations where it is better for them to kill themselves to keep the other team from getting kills (this is somewhat tactical, but is not fun for either the player or the opposing team).

Edited by way2lazy2care, 06 September 2011 - 02:29 PM.

[spiri7ussancti]

Exactly.

It makes it so the game almost gives you "extra lives". Your health gets whittled down every time you take damage for an extended period of time, and can never come back. The shields are just kind of a buffer.

I'm going to assume this is what you meant by exactly? Can i get a confirmation or denial before i continue this argument.

[CakeCom]

I'm going to assume this is what you meant by exactly? Can i get a confirmation or denial before i continue this argument.

I meant the entire paragraph. CoD isn't a scifi game, where the fuck does the regenerating health from?

I don't need arguments, I barely care what you think about CoD being competitive. It's in MLG, so obviously some retard thought it was a competitive game and threw it in there.

The fact is, it's just a popular game. It's not a great game, it's barely a decent game. There's always going to be some tard who thinks he's right on both sides. Just like how right now, I think I am right. CoD is in no way, shape or form a competitive game due to the regenerating health, the broken perks/killstreaks/attatchments and the easy as shit to learn mechanics. It barely works on PC and on console the autoaim is upped to the max. That's enough for me to not care what CoD players think is competitive.

[spiri7ussancti]

I meant the entire paragraph. CoD isn't a scifi game, where the fuck does the regenerating health from?

I don't need arguments

Whittling away your opponent's health little by little does nothing, and it's really a zero-sum game. Bad play is not punished. Accidentally expose yourself and almost die? NO PROBLEM, just duck behind this rock for a few seconds and it's like you never fucked up at all. Nor are good shots rewarded. Pull off some amazing across-the-map shot and nearly kill a guy (a'la picking through double doors in D2 in CS)? TOO BAD, he's regenerating, your effort was for naught.

This is a good example of a casual element overlapping (actually, completely overriding) what legitimate competitive gameplay CoD has.

Exactly.

BUT Halo does make up for this by doing a few things different- 1. Reach still has health and makes the character weaker over time
2. There's still weapon locations, meaning actual strategy goes into planning a game out and executing that plan
3. There's no Killstreaks / Perks / BS

Wouldn't that statement conflict with this then?

A buffer since you claim to agree with that statement, you would is exactly what you don't want. Or are you saying it's only except able in a sci fi game and not one where you play as a soldier, and how does that have any bearing on skill level.

You're not making coherent arguments here. ahh, but i see you "don't need arguments"

I'm not asking you to like the game, i'm asking you to have respect for other people opinions.

[CakeCom]

Wouldn't that statement conflict with this then?

A buffer since you claim to agree with that statement, you would is exactly what you don't want. Or are you saying it's only except able in a sci fi game and not one where you play as a soldier, and how does that have any bearing on skill level.

You're not making coherent arguments here. ahh, but i see you "don't need arguments"

I'm not asking you to like the game, i'm asking you to have respect for other people opinions.

No. I don't have respect for your opinions.

What you just pointed out doesn't make any sense.

[spiri7ussancti]

What you just pointed out doesn't make any sense.

ohhhhh, irony. You so funny.

[CakeCom]

ohhhhh, irony. You so funny.

Ok I just realized what you tried to do.

You took the second quote in your thing and tried to mis-phrase what Otaku said.

In a proffesional game, you want to be able to whittle someones health down slowly if you can. You don't need to get an instant kill headshot everytime.

In Call of Duty this is not possible. In Halo Reach it is.

[Original Sin]

With CoD the health regen is too fast for them to need to hide in a corner to regen health. They just have to crouch into cover for about a second

wut?


Your health isn't 100% regenerated, just because the jello disappears from your screen.

[CakeCom]

wut?


Your health isn't 100% regenerated, just because the jello disappears from your screen.

It regenerates pretty quickly, I was making up a number.

it's still fast enough to not matter enough for you to make you actually go hide in a corner.

[spiri7ussancti]

Ok I just realized what you tried to do.

You took the second quote in your thing and tried to mis-phrase what Otaku said.

In a proffesional game, you want to be able to whittle someones health down slowly if you can. You don't need to get an instant kill headshot everytime.

In Call of Duty this is not possible. In Halo Reach it is.

Fist of all no i did not. I mis-phrased nothing. That's a direct quote you can go look for it yourself. That's exactly what he said, and exactly what you agreed to.

And why do you not want to get an instant kill head shot every time? Why is this the only play style that makes for good competitive game types?

Also health in halo is negligible, 1 shot to the head, i think it's 3 to the chest. This is with the dmr of course. It's all about getting the shield down, once that happens if they get away it's because of your own stupidity.

Edited by spiri7ussancti, 06 September 2011 - 02:51 PM.

[CakeCom]

Fist of all no i did not. I mis-phrased nothing. That's a direct quote you can go look for it yourself. That's exactly what he said, and exactly what you agreed to.

Okay then, what the fuck are you arguing then?

Either you're misphrasing it in which I'd kind of understand what you're trying to argue

When you're just taking something he said then saying I agreed to it, when I did I really don't see what you're talking about at all.

Just keep playing CoD

Fucking hipsters these days, jesus.

[spiri7ussancti]

Okay then, what the fuck are you arguing then?

Either you're misphrasing it in which I'd kind of understand what you're trying to argue

When you're just taking something he said then saying I agreed to it, when I did I really don't see what you're talking about at all.

Just keep playing CoD

Fucking hipsters these days, jesus.

I'm trying to say that the reason against regenerating health is also a fucking problem in halo. The two arguments that i can actually find you've agreed with or stated don't fit together AT ALL.

Health in halo isn't even available to whittle down until after you've already layed mad bullets into the guy. And most of the pros mis head shots so little that it might as well just be part of the fucking shield.

It makes zero sense. At the very least the only way your argument comes coherent is if you also have a problem with halo. Otherwise you've presented nothing to back up your arguments while way2 has done nothing but back up his arguments.

And i haven't even been playing cod lately you obnoxious fuck. I've been playing LoL and Sc2.

[CakeCom]

And i haven't even been playing cod lately you obnoxious fuck. I've been playing LoL and Sc2.

mhm, sure.

Anyways, no. Without shields you can do permanent damage and then that permanent damage must be fixed by running to a health kit / medpack meaning you need to pay attention and secure the area with the medpack / health kits. Even the slightest amount of health counts.

If you don't understand that you don't understand how precise competitive play is, therefore you shouldn't be arguing (and are probably a hardcore CoD player).